Rank the Top Sith Sorcerers

Started by S_W_LeGenD13 pages

Originally posted by Q99
Sure, but 'reasonably powerful force user who an advanced understanding of dark sorcery' could be used to describe Darth Maladi too, just with memory walk instead of force-walk. No-one's putting her at the top of their lists.

The word "powerful" is thrown around so easily these days by fans, is their an official source which promotes Maladi as a powerful Force-user?

I mention Darth Nox as a powerful Force-user because he is stated as such in a sourcebook, even before confronting Thanaton. I don't subscribe labels to characters on the basis of personal interest.

Originally posted by Q99
One force ghost didn't put her all that far up in power. It's only when she had a posse that Nox became very powerful.

I am not sure why you think that, since Force ghosts are powerful entities in their own right (once again, official revelation, not my POV).

Issue is that some people just don't seem to understand how powerful Thanaton is. He is officially stated to be a "supremely powerful" Force-user which means that he is up there with the big guys.

Originally posted by Q99
Bane had no sorcery whatsoever, he was just insanely powerful. He didn't *need* a force ghost.

Insanely powerful is a subjective hype. Bane was in decline by the time he clashed with Zannah, obalisks had taken a massive toll on his well being.

Bane had aptitude for sorcery, he learned essence transfer. He wasn't a master of this field though.

Originally posted by Q99
And Andeddu was so powerful no lone sith was willing to confront him *at all* because none could stop his sorcery and knew it.

Andeddu is supposedly pioneer of some sorcery techniques so he had an edge unless he taught others what he learned. Also, quality of Sith in his time isn't anywhere close to the quality that existed during lets say golden age of Sith, reconstituted ancient Sith Empire, era of Bannite Sith or era of Krayt; reconstituted ancient Sith Empire takes the cake though in progress in every aspect.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It was two force ghosts actually.

I think it might have been that Nox just didn't know how to defend against Thanaton's ritual though.


Interesting! Yes, this can be a reason as well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Insanely powerful is a subjective hype. Bane was in decline by the time he clashed with Zannah, obalisks had taken a massive toll on his well being.

Bane has also been referred to as an "all-powerful Sith" along with Vitiate, has been called "one of the most powerful Sith Lords who ever lived", has been named "one of the most powerful individuals in the universe." Bane was also the Sith'ari of prophecy, and even in DOE had been cited as having "access to near-infinite power."

These are all better than Thanaton's accolades, I mean accolade.

They're all true. Bane is the most powerful Sith of all time

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane has also been referred to as an "all-powerful Sith" along with Vitiate, has been called "one of the most powerful Sith Lords who ever lived", has been named "one of the most powerful individuals in the universe." Bane was also the Sith'ari of prophecy, and even in DOE had been cited as having "access to near-infinite power."

These are all better than Thanaton's accolades, I mean accolade.


The word 'supreme' implies greatest.

"One of the most powerful Sith Lords in history" isn't a unique accolade, every great Sith fits this criteria.

Thanaton also have "insurmountable strength." You know what insurmountable stands for? Check on google.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The word 'supreme' implies greatest.

"One of the most powerful Sith Lords in history" isn't a unique accolade, every great Sith fits this criteria.

Thanaton also have "insurmountable strength." You know what insurmountable stands for? Check on google.


And 'all-powerful' implies omnipotence.


Thanaton also have "insurmountable strength." You know what insurmountable stands for? Check on google.

Directly contradicts his performance against Nox. Massively lmao.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And 'all-powerful' implies omnipotence.

In which source Bane have been touted as "all-powerful"?

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Directly contradicts his performance against Nox. Massively lmao.

Darth Nox subdued him by drawing on the power of several Force spirits bind to him on top of his own immense strength.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In which source Bane have been touted as "all-powerful"?

Drew Karpyshyn.

And the having access to near-infinite power thing was in DOE.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Drew Karpyshyn.

Not in the lore then.

Thanaton have 'in-lore' accolades, in an encyclopedic medium which makes them even more impressive/appealing then accolades assigned in other mediums. Encyclopedic mediums tend to be conservative at hype factor.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And the having access to near-infinite power thing was in DOE.

Noted, but doesn't makes much difference. It is already known that Bane became an incredibly powerful Force-user. However, he was in decline when he confronted Zannah, not in his best condition or top shape. If he had lived just 5 years more, he would have become a mere shadow of his former-self, he was declining so fast.

Noted, but doesn't makes much difference. It is already known that Bane became an incredibly powerful Force-user. However, he was in decline when he confronted Zannah, not in his best condition or top shape. If he had lived just 5 years more, he would have become a mere shadow of his former-self, he was declining so fast

😄 👆

What do you mean Encyclopedic mediums are conservative?

And how does having near-infinite power not make a difference?

Bane's abilities had only very slightly diminished by DOE, you are acting like he needed a ****ing cane to walk.

BTW Legend, is English your first language? Cause your post have grammatical errors.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Not in the lore then.

We can argue canon all day long, but Bane being the Sith'ari is blatantly stated in an encyclopedia.

Bane's abilities had only very slightly diminished by DOE, you are acting like he needed a ****ing cane to walk.

He never stated anything to the level of exaggeration you are envisioning. He just said Zannah fought a physically weaker, slower, and altogether pussified version of Orbalisk man.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The word 'supreme' implies greatest.

"One of the most powerful Sith Lords in history" isn't a unique accolade, every great Sith fits this criteria.

Thanaton also have "insurmountable strength." You know what insurmountable stands for? Check on google.

His point, Legend, is that hyperbolic statements can only take you so far and are unreliable and prone to exaggeration.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Darth Nox subdued him by drawing on the power of several Force spirits bind to him on top of his own immense strength.

Right, which proves that he's not insurmountable. 👆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Noted, but doesn't makes much difference. It is already known that Bane became an incredibly powerful Force-user. However, he was in decline when he confronted Zannah, not in his best condition or top shape. If he had lived just 5 years more, he would have become a mere shadow of his former-self, he was declining so fast.

Bane was only diminished by "the merest fraction" and "a tiny sliver". Which is an utterly insignificant amount. And the following paragraph has Bane explain that his deeper knowledge and experience more than made up for the miniscule amount he was weakened. DoE represents Bane at his fastest and at his greatest Force Mastery.

Drew Karpyshyn states the "all-powerful" quote here: http://drewkarpyshyn.com/c/?page_id=7, if you were wondering.
Seemingly, he is referring to Vitiate, Darth Bane, and Revan in the quote.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
What do you mean Encyclopedic mediums are conservative?

And how does having near-infinite power not make a difference?

Bane's abilities had only very slightly diminished by DOE, you are acting like he needed a ****ing cane to walk.


Encylopedic mediums are conservatively written in comparison to lets say novels in the context of hype factor.

I am not sure what "near-infinite power" implies. Bane have great endurance or his learning potential is great?

Also, check the official information provided below.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
BTW Legend, is English your first language? Cause your post have grammatical errors.

Hmm, no.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
We can argue canon all day long, but Bane being the Sith'ari is blatantly stated in an encyclopedia.

Yes, never denied this.

Bane fulfilled an ancient prophesy about revolutionizing the Sith during times of decay.

Originally posted by Nephthys
His point, Legend, is that hyperbolic statements can only take you so far and are unreliable and prone to exaggeration.

This rings true for Bane as well and not just Thanaton.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Right, which proves that he's not insurmountable. 👆

Right....

You recall what happened to Darth Sidious when he visited tombs of ancient Lords in Korriban? Force ghosts severely wounded him and he would have perished if not for the timely rescue. Heck, he had to be healed in a bacta tank to properly recover.

So by your logic, Sidious doesn't have insurmountable strength either.

What are you smoking, Neph? Drawing on the power of multiple Force ghosts is stupendous boost in strength and I am not sure if any mortal can stand a chance against such level of might.

You cannot fault Thanaton for loosing to stupendously amped Nox. Heck, any mortal would have faltered against that kind of power.

I dislike double standards.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Bane was only diminished by "the merest fraction" and "a tiny sliver". Which is an utterly insignificant amount. And the following paragraph has Bane explain that his deeper knowledge and experience more than made up for the miniscule amount he was weakened. DoE represents Bane at his fastest and at his greatest Force Mastery.

I am not sure about this. His decline was continuous, their would have been a gap of days between his rain feat and battle between Zannah.

Read this:

From Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Age was beginning to take its toll on Bane, but it was nothing compared with the toll already wrought upon his body by decades of drawing upon the dark side of the Force. He couldn't help but smile at the grim irony: through the dark side he had access to near-infinite power, but it was power that came with· a terrible cost. Flesh and bone lacked the strength to withstand
the unfathomable energy unleashed by the Force. The unquenchable fire of the dark side was consuming him, devouring him bit by bit. After decades of focusing and channeling its power, his body was beginning to
break down.

His condition was exacerbated by the lingering effects of the orbalisk armor that had been killing him even as it gifted him with incredible strength and speed.

The parasites had pushed his body well beyond its natural limits, aging him prematurely and intensifying the degeneration wrought by the power of the dark side. The orbalisks were gone now, but their damage could not be undone.

The first outward manifestations of his failing health had been subtle: his eyes had become sunken and drawn, his skin a touch more pale and pockmarked than was normal for his age. The last year, however, had seen more pronounced deterioration, culminating with the involuntary tremor that seized his left hand with increasing frequency.

And there was nothing he could do about it. The Jedi could draw upon the light side to heal injury and disease. But the dark side was a weapon; the sick and frail did not deserve to be cured. Only the strong were worthy of survival.

He had tried to conceal the tremor from his apprentice, but Zannah was too quick, too cunning, to have missed such an obvious mark of weakness in her Master.

Bane had expected the tremor to be the catalyst Zannah needed to challenge him. Yet even now, with his body showing undeniable evidence of his growing vulnerability, she seemed content to maintain the status quo.

Whether she acted out of fear, indecision, or perhaps even compassion for her Master, Bane didn't know—but none of these traits was acceptable in one chosen to carryon his legacy.

There was another potential explanation, of course—yet it was the most troubling of all. It was possible Zannah had noticed his deteriorating physical abilities and had simply decided to wait. In five years his body would be a ruined husk, and she could dispatch him with virtually no risk.

---

As I pointed out before, Bane was in decline by the time he faced Zannah. He was not in his top shape or peak strength levels. 5 more years, and he would have been a ruined husk.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Yes, never denied this.

Bane fulfilled an ancient prophesy about revolutionizing the Sith during times of decay.

The Sith'ari was stated to be the "perfect Sith" with "perfect power."

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This rings true for Bane as well and not just Thanaton.

Yes it does.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Right....

You recall what happened to Darth Sidious when he visited tombs of ancient Lords in Korriban? Force ghosts severely wounded him and he would have perished if not for the timely rescue. Heck, he had to be healed in a bacta tank to properly recover.

So by your logic, Sidious doesn't have insurmountable strength either.

What are you smoking, Neph? Drawing on the power of multiple Force ghosts is stupendous boost in strength and I am not sure if any mortal can stand a chance against such level of might.

You cannot fault Thanaton for loosing to stupendously amped Nox. Heck, any mortal would have faltered against that kind of power.

I dislike double standards.

Yes, Sidious doesn't have insurmountable strength. 😬

And drawing on the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters in a stupendous boost yet the Barsen'thor still managed to kick Vivicar's ass. Vitiate's power was greatly amplified yet the Hero of Tython still cockslapped his dumb jowly face. Unuthul was drawing power off of millions of Kiliks yet Luke still beat his ass. Mortals can and have stood up to people who's strength was amped by those of others. Hell, isn't it true that you think Revan is more powerful than Nihilus who was eating entire planets?

Don't be ridiculous Legend, plenty of people have demonstrated the power to stand up to Nox. You really think Luke Skywalker would falter? The guy who it was stated that not even a super-massive black hole could move? Open your eyes man.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not sure about this. His decline was continuous, their would have been a gap of days between his rain feat and battle between Zannah.

😐

A few days wouldn't diminish him by any degree.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Read this:

From [B]Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

Age was beginning to take its toll on Bane, but it was nothing compared with the toll already wrought upon his body by decades of drawing upon the dark side of the Force. He couldn't help but smile at the grim irony: through the dark side he had access to near-infinite power, but it was power that came with· a terrible cost. Flesh and bone lacked the strength to withstand
the unfathomable energy unleashed by the Force. The unquenchable fire of the dark side was consuming him, devouring him bit by bit. After decades of focusing and channeling its power, his body was beginning to
break down.

His condition was exacerbated by the lingering effects of the orbalisk armor that had been killing him even as it gifted him with incredible strength and speed.

The parasites had pushed his body well beyond its natural limits, aging him prematurely and intensifying the degeneration wrought by the power of the dark side. The orbalisks were gone now, but their damage could not be undone.

The first outward manifestations of his failing health had been subtle: his eyes had become sunken and drawn, his skin a touch more pale and pockmarked than was normal for his age. The last year, however, had seen more pronounced deterioration, culminating with the involuntary tremor that seized his left hand with increasing frequency.

And there was nothing he could do about it. The Jedi could draw upon the light side to heal injury and disease. But the dark side was a weapon; the sick and frail did not deserve to be cured. Only the strong were worthy of survival.

He had tried to conceal the tremor from his apprentice, but Zannah was too quick, too cunning, to have missed such an obvious mark of weakness in her Master.

Bane had expected the tremor to be the catalyst Zannah needed to challenge him. Yet even now, with his body showing undeniable evidence of his growing vulnerability, she seemed content to maintain the status quo.

Whether she acted out of fear, indecision, or perhaps even compassion for her Master, Bane didn't know—but none of these traits was acceptable in one chosen to carryon his legacy.

There was another potential explanation, of course—yet it was the most troubling of all. It was possible Zannah had noticed his deteriorating physical abilities and had simply decided to wait. In five years his body would be a ruined husk, and she could dispatch him with virtually no risk.

---

As I pointed out before, Bane was in decline by the time he faced Zannah. He was not in his top shape or peak strength levels. 5 more years, and he would have been a ruined husk. [/B]

I'm well aware of all that. But I'm also aware that Bane himself states that he's only weakened by a miniscule amount.:

"He still cut an imposing figure. The powerful muscles built up during a youth spent working the mines on Apatros rippled beneath his skin, flexing with each slash and strike of his lightsaber. But a tiny sliver of the brute strength he once possessed had been whittled away.

He leapt high in the air, his lightsaber arcing above his head before chopping straight down in a blow powerful enough to cleave an enemy in two. His feet hit the hard surface of the courtyard stones with a sharp, sudden smack as he landed. Bane still moved with fierce grace and terrifying intensity. His lightsaber still flickered with blinding speed as he performed his martial drills, yet it was the merest fraction slower than it had once been."

Those are extremely insignificant amounts that he was diminished by.

Originally posted by Nephthys
The Sith'ari was stated to be the "perfect Sith" with "perfect power."

Prophesies are not necessarily 100% accurate. CIP: prophesy of The Chosen One.

Bane wasn't supposed to be most powerful, just that he was powerful enough to make difference during the times of decay and decline of Sith.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes it does.

Good

Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, Sidious doesn't have insurmountable strength. 😬

He is noticeably stronger then Bane though.

Originally posted by Nephthys
And drawing on the power of hundreds of Jedi Masters in a stupendous boost yet the Barsen'thor still managed to kick Vivicar's ass. Vitiate's power was greatly amplified yet the Hero of Tython still cockslapped his dumb jowly face. Unuthul was drawing power off of millions of Kiliks yet Luke still beat his ass. Mortals can and have stood up to people who's strength was amped by those of others. Hell, isn't it true that you think Revan is more powerful than Nihilus who was eating entire planets?

Don't be ridiculous Legend, plenty of people have demonstrated the power to stand up to Nox. You really think Luke Skywalker would falter? The guy who it was stated that not even a super-massive black hole could move? Open your eyes man.


- Vivicar was growing in power, he haven't peaked by the time Barsen'thor approached him.

- Emperor Vitiate was significantly weakened by disruption of his most ambitious ritual, I am not sure from where you are getting the idea that he was amped when HoT struck him down. Emperor Vitiate was also trying to keep Force ghosts lurking within the Dark Temple at bay or submissive to make the environment of Dark Temple safer for his Imperial Guard, so Emperor Vitiate had to exert more, possibly lot more, while simultaneously dealing with HoT. In short, Emperor Vitiate was utterly disadvantaged in this situation.

- I cannot say much about power progression of UnuThul, he did go down like a chump. In contrast, Lord Nyax proved to be much greater threat to Luke then UnuThul ever did and without any augmentation.

----

My observation is that drawing power from a Force ghost makes major difference:

- Kype Durron was just a padawan when Force ghost of Kun seduced him and augmented him, and the Jedi was able to perform feats of such magnitude that he would not have with his natural strength.

- Revan was able to cope with telepathic powers and Force drain powers of Emperor Vitiate for 300 years in a stasis by drawing on the power of Force ghost of Surik. He wouldn't have stood a chance with his natural strength.

- Nox utterly destroyed a supremely powerful Sith Lord by drawing on the power of several Force ghosts.

----

You need to open your eyes, Neph. Not me.

And yes, Force ghosts can destroy even Luke. Kun's ghost one-shot him, remember?

Mortals have limits, even greatest of the mortals are not unstoppable.

Luke's supposed capability to resist the might of a super black-hole is utterly baseless hype. He was immensely stressed from the act of manipulating an (artificially created) small black hole and he was giving his best for this action, artificial black holes were no where near as strong as natural ones.

Originally posted by Nephthys
😐

A few days wouldn't diminish him by any degree.


I am not exactly sure how big was the gap between the two events; it could be some days to a year. A lot had happened in-between.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I'm well aware of all that. But I'm also aware that Bane himself states that he's only weakened by a miniscule amount.:

"He still cut an imposing figure. The powerful muscles built up during a youth spent working the mines on Apatros rippled beneath his skin, flexing with each slash and strike of his lightsaber. But a tiny sliver of the brute strength he once possessed had been whittled away.

He leapt high in the air, his lightsaber arcing above his head before chopping straight down in a blow powerful enough to cleave an enemy in two. His feet hit the hard surface of the courtyard stones with a sharp, sudden smack as he landed. Bane still moved with fierce grace and terrifying intensity. His lightsaber still flickered with blinding speed as he performed his martial drills, yet it was the merest fraction slower than it had once been."

Those are extremely insignificant amounts that he was diminished by.


Bane was loosing strength every day. By the time he clashed with Zannah, he might have lost noticeable strength depending upon the time gap.

Revan was able to cope with telepathic powers and Force drain powers of Emperor Vitiate for 300 years in a stasis by drawing on the power of Force ghost of Surik. He wouldn't have stood a chance with his natural strength.

Lies. Revan was completely able to stand against his natural strength. The ultimate difference was the *Force reserve*, and Revan's energy would simply run out without Meetra allowing him to drain her.
Revan *never* had any boosted powers in his mental war like you imply, but rather his full power constantly. In fact, some times Revan was in a weak state, as the quote below proves.

"Yet even though she couldn’t communicate with him, she was able to offer aid and support, her power trickling through the energy barrier that surrounded him, a lifeline he could cling to in the dark ocean of his imprisonment. As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan