Rank the Top Sith Sorcerers

Started by S_W_LeGenD13 pages

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lies. Revan was completely able to stand against his natural strength. The ultimate difference was the *Force reserve*, and Revan's energy would simply run out without Meetra allowing him to drain her.
Revan *never* had any boosted powers in his mental war like you imply, but rather his full power constantly. In fact, some times Revan was in a weak state, as the quote below proves.

"Yet even though she couldn’t communicate with him, she was able to offer aid and support, her power trickling through the energy barrier that surrounded him, a lifeline he could cling to in the dark ocean of his imprisonment. As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war."
―Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan


And what did I assert?

It is obvious that Revan wouldn't have lasted 300 years in such a state without drawing on the power of Surik's ghost, be this to replenish himself. In-fact, Revan would have perished very soon otherwise.

You said "He wouldn't have stood a chance with his natural strength."
That's completely wrong. His "natural strength" was capable of doing the mental war.
The difference was his "natural strength" was being drained, so he needed to be replenished.
You were implying Revan was *amped*, he wasn't. Not at all, to be fair.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
You said "He wouldn't have stood a chance with his natural strength."
That's completely wrong. His "natural strength" was capable of doing the mental war.
The difference was his "natural strength" was being drained, so he needed to be replenished.
You were implying Revan was *amped*, he wasn't. Not at all, to be fair.

But he wouldn't have lasted 300 years in that situation with his natural strength or would he?

Point is that Force ghosts are immensely powerful entities. With support of Surik's ghost, Revan managed to sustain worst kind of torture for centuries.

Except you fail to recognize *Vitiate's* power was also being replenished...by Revan.
If Vitiate was not draining Revan, I seriously doubt he could have lasted 300 years either.
With both of their power at "natural", they stalemated eachother, with both getting their powers equally *replenished*, not *amped.*

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except you fail to recognize *Vitiate's* power was also being replenished...by Revan.
If Vitiate was not draining Revan, I seriously doubt he could have lasted 300 years either.
With both of their power at "natural", they stalemated eachother, with both getting their powers equally *replenished*, not *amped.*

Emperor Vitiate was draining many individuals, not just Revan.

I am not sure if stalemate is right choice of word, even with support from Surik's ghost, Revan's strength began to diminish eventually. This is why Surik's ghost eventually reached out to a Jedi Master to set the stage for rescue of Revan.

However, you are missing my point. Revan lasted centuries against Emperor's powers with aid from Surik's ghost. If this ghost had not been in the picture, Emperor would have killed the Jedi with his draining powers.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Emperor Vitiate was draining many individuals, not just Revan.

This only furthers Ant's point of Vitiate's energy being replenished as well.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not sure if stalemate is right choice of word, even with support from Surik's ghost, Revan's strength began to diminish eventually. This is why Surik's ghost eventually reached out to a Jedi Master to set the stage for rescue of Revan.

Because Surik wouldn't want to help free him from his torture anyways?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
However, you are missing my point. Revan lasted centuries against Emperor's powers with aid from Surik's ghost. If this ghost had not been in the picture, Emperor would have killed the Jedi with his draining powers.

And killing a prisoner locked in stasis is impressive?

👆 👆

Originally posted by Emperordmb
This only furthers Ant's point of Vitiate's energy being replenished as well.

And why Emperor needs to replenish his energy? He is not getting drained.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Because Surik wouldn't want to help free him from his torture anyways?

And killing a prisoner locked in stasis is impressive?


I am not sure what your point is.

And why Emperor needs to replenish his energy? He is not getting drained.

Lol. His strength is getting replenished from the drain.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
And why Emperor needs to replenish his energy? He is not getting drained.

And that only places Revan at more of a disadvantage...

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not sure what your point is.

Surik is Revan's friend. Revan doesn't have to be losing the mental war or on the verge of breaking for her to want to free him.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Lol. His strength is getting replenished from the drain.

You are not making any sense here.

Emperor doesn't needs to replenish his energies because he is not in decline or getting drained.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
And that only places Revan at more of a disadvantage...

Surik is Revan's friend. Revan doesn't have to be losing the mental war or on the verge of breaking for her to want to free him.


You have missed my point entirely.

Revan lasted against Emperor's powers for 300 years with support from Surik's ghost. Point is that Force ghosts are powerful entities and they can have a major impact on an individual's performance in every aspect.

Doesn't matter is he "needs" too. He *is.*
Do you not know what "Force Drain" does?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Doesn't matter is he "needs" too. He *is.*
Do you not know what "Force Drain" does?

Force Drain can be used for multiple purposes:

- kill
- Replenish energy
- Fuel the power

This explains how Emperor was growing in power with passage of time, he fueled his power by draining many individuals.

Except Revan and Vitiate were using the same technique. They were "feeding" off others, which refreshes and restores their Force abilities.
It is called "Drain Force," a variation of "Force Drain."

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Except Revan and Vitiate were using the same technique. They were "feeding" off others, which refreshes and restores their Force abilities.
It is called "Drain Force," a variation of "Force Drain."

No.

Revan was siphoning energy from Surik's ghost because he was being drained by Emperor, Revan was replenishing his energy in this manner.

Emperor --- Drains --- > Revan --- Drains --- > Surik's ghost

In contrast, Emperor wasn't being drained by anybody else, rather siphoning energy of others to fuel his power.

Emperor --- Drains --- > Revan and many others

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
No.

Revan was siphoning energy from Surik's ghost because he was being drained by Emperor.

In contrast, Emperor wasn't being drained by anybody else, rather siphoning energy of others to fuel his power.


So as far as the mental war goes they were still stalemating eachother?

Mind-domination requires effort and depletion of energy. It's not something you can just do off the whim and expect no consequences from it, hence why it is so difficult.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Prophesies are not necessarily 100% accurate. CIP: prophesy of The Chosen One.

Bane wasn't supposed to be most powerful, just that he was powerful enough to make difference during the times of decay and decline of Sith.

So prophecy is worthless? The Chosen One did everything the prophecy said he would AND he was the most powerful being ever born.

The whole point of the prophecy was that the Sith'ari would be the King Adas reborn, who was notable for his power in driving off the Rakata. The Sith'ari would obviously have immense power and represent the pinnacle of the Sith ideal. Thats the prophecy.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He is noticeably stronger then Bane though.

In what manner?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
- Vivicar was growing in power, he haven't peaked by the time Barsen'thor approached him.

- Emperor Vitiate was significantly weakened by disruption of his most ambitious ritual, I am not sure from where you are getting the idea that he was amped when HoT struck him down. Emperor Vitiate was also trying to keep Force ghosts lurking within the Dark Temple at bay or submissive to make the environment of Dark Temple safer for his Imperial Guard, so Emperor Vitiate had to exert more, possibly lot more, while simultaneously dealing with HoT. In short, Emperor Vitiate was utterly disadvantaged in this situation.

- I cannot say much about power progression of UnuThul, he did go down like a chump. In contrast, Lord Nyax proved to be much greater threat to Luke then UnuThul ever did and without any augmentation.

- So what? He WAS still drawing power from hundreds of Jedi Masters. Even if he only absorbed a small portion of power from each, the amp would be immense. According to you that should make him insurmountable yet the Barsen'thor beat him while she was weakened and after fighting through sorcery-enhanced soldiers. Amps can be overcome.

- Theres no indication Vitiate had to keeps the ghosts under control. He could just put them back to sleep like they were before the game starts. Vitiate was also on a powerful darkside nexus and the Hero had to fight to get to him.

- So admit that beings unnaturally amped by the power of many others can be eclipsed by naturally extremely powerful Force users.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
My observation is that drawing power from a Force ghost makes major difference:

- Kype Durron was just a padawan when Force ghost of Kun seduced him and augmented him, and the Jedi was able to perform feats of such magnitude that he would not have with his natural strength.

- Revan was able to cope with telepathic powers and Force drain powers of Emperor Vitiate for 300 years in a stasis by drawing on the power of Force ghost of Surik. He wouldn't have stood a chance with his natural strength.

- Nox utterly destroyed a supremely powerful Sith Lord by drawing on the power of several Force ghosts.

- Because Exar Kun is one of the most powerful Sith of all time. He's laughably far above the Sith Nox bound to himself. Even put together Kun is likely equal to or above their power.

- Not because Surik was powerful JUST by being a Force spirit.

- Because their combined power eclipses Thanatons. But Nox's power doesn't eclipse the likes of Jadus, Malgus, HoT, Barsen'thor, Marr, Scourge, the Wrath and others. All naturally powerful Force users and all peers of Nox.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You need to open your eyes, Neph. Not me.

And yes, Force ghosts can destroy even Luke. Kun's ghost one-shot him, remember?

Mortals have limits, even greatest of the mortals are not unstoppable.

Luke's supposed capability to resist the might of a super black-hole is utterly baseless hype. He was immensely stressed from the act of manipulating an (artificially created) small black hole and he was giving his best for this action, artificial black holes were no where near as strong as natural ones.

Only because Kun is so powerful and used an attack Luke didn't know the defense for. Don't act as if any Force ghost could destroy Luke. Kun is the exception, not the rule. His power was immense.

Immortals have limits as well. Nox's power has limits, no matter how amplifed it is. Don't imply otherwise. Nox's limit is still below that of the greatest Jedi and Sith in the mythos.

Don't care. Jacen still blocked turbolaser cannonfire, which is immensely powerful and Luke is greater than him. He's not faltering against Nox.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not exactly sure how big was the gap between the two events; it could be some days to a year. A lot had happened in-between.

It was a few days.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Bane was loosing strength every day. By the time he clashed with Zannah, he might have lost noticeable strength depending upon the time gap.

No he wasn't. Its utterly ridiculous to think his power would have declined by a noticeable degree in the few days of DOE. I'd say I expect better from you, but your arguments are getting more outlandish every time.

Originally posted by Nephthys
So prophecy is worthless? The Chosen One did everything the prophecy said he would AND he was the most powerful being ever born.

The whole point of the prophecy was that the Sith'ari would be the King Adas reborn, who was notable for his power in driving off the Rakata. The Sith'ari would obviously have immense power and represent the pinnacle of the Sith ideal. Thats the prophecy.


Prophesy isn't worthless, the individual who fulfills the prophesy is not necessarily supposed to be a godlike being.

Anakin had that kind of potential but he never peaked, his story was a tragedy.

By the way:

Discovered as a slave on Tatooine by Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan Kenobi, Anakin Skywalker had the potential to become one of the most powerful Jedi ever, and was believed by some to be the prophesized Chosen One who would bring balance to the Force. (From official website of Star Wars, now under Disney)

Similarly, Bane became a powerful Force-user, a standout of his era, fulfilled the prophesy. However, he wasn't supposed to be a godlike being and he isn't.

Originally posted by Nephthys
In what manner?

So you think that Bane is as strong as Sidious?

Originally posted by Nephthys
- So what? He WAS still drawing power from hundreds of Jedi Masters. Even if he only absorbed a small portion of power from each, the amp would be immense. According to you that should make him insurmountable yet the Barsen'thor beat him while she was weakened and after fighting through sorcery-enhanced soldiers. Amps can be overcome.

You are not presenting the whole picture;

1. Barsen'thor learned a special shielding technique with which she could resist influence (plague) of Lord Vivcar unlike other Jedi.

2. Barsen'thor freed many Jedi from influence of Lord Vivcar prior to confronting him, effectively shortening the supply of reserves of Lord Vivcar.

3. Barsen'thor wounded Lord Vivcar during battle and ended the influence of Morrhage's ghost on Parkanas Tank, effectively ending the battle.

Now, there is a possibility that Barsen'thor wounded Lord Vivicar with use of a lightsaber. In addition, Lord Vivicar wasn't a master of Force-walking ritual, he couldn't draw on the power of Force ghosts to fuel his own power like Darth Nox. Lord Vivicar is basically a host possessed by Force ghost of Terrak Morrhage. Fundamental difference in both developments.

Neph, it is always wise to focus on the ground realities and not on black & white notions. You cannot prove that Lord Vivcar is anywhere close to Darth Nox in power.

Originally posted by Nephthys
- Theres no indication Vitiate had to keeps the ghosts under control. He could just put them back to sleep like they were before the game starts. Vitiate was also on a powerful darkside nexus and the Hero had to fight to get to him.

Put them back to sleep? What nonsense is this. Force ghosts are restless entities and they cannot be put back to sleep like you are claiming. Anybody who ventures in to Dark Temple, learns a lesson the hard way.

Emperor Vitiate is the only Force-user in the galaxy who managed to control Force ghosts within Dark Temple, no other individual could pull this off. So yes, Emperor Vitiate was logically under greater pressure while confronting HoT for the second time on top of being weakened by the disruption of his most ambitious ritual. Once again, HoT's victory of Emperor Vitiate is a product of circumstances, not indicative of HoT's incredible power. Don't get me wrong, HoT is incredibly powerful as noted by Emperor Vitiate himself but he isn't a match for the mighty Sith, a godlike being, in a fair setting. No Jedi is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
- So admit that beings unnaturally amped by the power of many others can be eclipsed by naturally extremely powerful Force users.

No, your assessment is misplaced.

Originally posted by Nephthys
- Because Exar Kun is one of the most powerful Sith of all time. He's laughably far above the Sith Nox bound to himself. Even put together Kun is likely equal to or above their power.

🙄

You are not making any sense here. As good as Kun is, he will not match the combined might of like 5 or 6 formidable practitioners of the dark side, 4 of these are Force ghosts. Force ghosts are powerful manifestations of energy, different in nature from a sentient being but have virtually limit-less energy.

Originally posted by Nephthys
- Not because Surik was powerful JUST by being a Force spirit.

I recommend you to read about Force spirits in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia, then get back to me.

Originally posted by Nephthys
- Because their combined power eclipses Thanatons. But Nox's power doesn't eclipse the likes of Jadus, Malgus, HoT, Barsen'thor, Marr, Scourge, the Wrath and others. All naturally powerful Force users and all peers of Nox.

And you know this how?

Even if we assume that these Force-users are stronger then Thanaton on individual basis (I doubt everybody is), this still doesn't confirms that they are a match for Nox's amplified form.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Only because Kun is so powerful and used an attack Luke didn't know the defense for. Don't act as if any Force ghost could destroy Luke. Kun is the exception, not the rule. His power was immense.

See above

Originally posted by Nephthys
Immortals have limits as well. Nox's power has limits, no matter how amplifed it is. Don't imply otherwise. Nox's limit is still below that of the greatest Jedi and Sith in the mythos.

Yes, every being have limits. However, I am not sure if Nox's amplified form should be used to compare him with mortals naturally strong in the Force.

Do not forget that Nox is also powerful in the ways of the Force, without use of Force ghosts, he isn't a chump without such amplification and he is stupendously powerful with amplification.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Don't care. Jacen still blocked turbolaser cannonfire, which is immensely powerful and Luke is greater than him. He's not faltering against Nox.

Vader also blocked turbolaser canon fire, so Luke being greater then Vader is indicative of him being greater then amplified Nox? Makes no sense to me.

Here is a fact: Luke have limits too. Lord Nyax proved this and he is touted to be one of the most powerful dark jedi of his era, nothing immense.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It was a few days.

No he wasn't. Its utterly ridiculous to think his power would have declined by a noticeable degree in the few days of DOE. I'd say I expect better from you, but your arguments are getting more outlandish every time.


Evidence of few days claim?

I am not suggesting that Bane wasn't even in fighting form. He certainly was strong when he confronted Zannah but not at his peak strength and condition.

My focus is on ground realities on the whole, my assessment isn't outlandish by any stretch of imagination.