Jedi vs X-Men

Originally posted by The_Tempest
You're free to speculate (as I have in this very thread). The difference is that I openly admit that I'm speculating whereas you seem to labor under the delusion that you're dealing in hard facts and axioms.

This is false as the very item you quoted is direct evidence against you comment, here. Please be more honest in your portrayal of other's positions.

Originally posted by dadudemon
This is false as the very item you quoted is direct evidence against you comment, here. Please be more honest in your portrayal of other's positions.

dadudemon
Xavier can target all of their minds and kill all of them.

^ And here you are, doing just the opposite. Then you tailspin into noticeable frustration when called out on it. This is not the behavior of an honest debater, my son.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
^ And here you are, doing just the opposite. Then you tailspin into noticeable frustration when called out on it. This is not the behavior of an honest debater, my son.

You're, again, being dishonest in your portrayal of my arguments. I suggest that there is indirect evidence that nothing has changed in Xavier's powers. You demand direct evidence that I cannot provide.

You speculate that his powers drastically change (baselessly and without direct evidence or indirect evidence). I speculate based on indirect evidence. His power-set should be the same since he reached maturity and practiced with his X-men in First Class.

There is nothing dishonest about my position and I am free to assume Xavier's powers work as seen onscreen.

Edit -Additionally, there is zero frustration in any of my posts. Don't be like the others and pull "u mad" arguments. If you want to descend into the immaturity of the MvF, go ahead. I've treated you fairly and respectfully. You're doing a good job of making me reconsider with your trolling. You were rumored to be a cut above the rest but that does not appear to be the case. You appear to be every bit as immature and childish as the people you deride.

Originally posted by dadudemon
You're, again, being dishonest in your portrayal of my arguments. I suggest that there is indirect evidence that nothing has changed in Xavier's powers. You demand direct evidence that I cannot provide.

You speculate that his powers drastically change (baselessly and without direct evidence or indirect evidence). I speculate based on indirect evidence. His power-set should be the same since he reached maturity and practiced with his X-men in First Class.

There is nothing dishonest about my position and I am free to assume Xavier's powers work as seen onscreen.

Excellent. So... "as seen on-screen," does prequel!Xavier have the feats for us to conclude he is capable of laying down some mindhaxx on telepaths in such a way as is relevant here?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Excellent. So... "as seen on-screen," does prequel!Xavier have the feats for us to conclude he is capable of laying down some mindhaxx on telepaths in such a way as is relevant here?

1. You've acknowledged that your position is every bit as baseless as you think mine is. See:

The_Tempest
You're free to speculate (as I have in this very thread). The difference is that I openly admit that I'm speculating whereas you seem to labor under the delusion that you're dealing in hard facts and axioms.

2.
You're arguing in circles as I've already rebutted this point:

"I suggest that there is indirect evidence that nothing has changed in Xavier's powers. You demand direct evidence that I cannot provide.

You speculate that his powers drastically change (baselessly and without direct evidence or indirect evidence). I speculate based on indirect evidence. His power-set should be the same since he reached maturity and practiced with his X-men in First Class."

Nay, my good fellow. I just don't assume facts not in evidence. We've both speculated, but only one of us has attempted to camouflage his speculation under the guise of hard fact.

I'm glad to see you've recanted and now the debate isn't so clear cut, is it?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nay, my good fellow. I just don't assume facts not in evidence. We've both speculated, but only one of us has attempted to camouflage his speculation under the guise of hard fact.

I like to take the position, of all MvF characters, that they have their powers unless onscreen statements or feats indicate there are restrictions.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm glad to see you've recanted and now the debate isn't so clear cut, is it?

For me, it is. I see no reason to believe a negative position regarding Xavier's powers. This isn't a Battle Zone where only direct feats can be used. You have yet to convince me that Xavier doesn't have his powers with evidence. Gimping characters is usually what people do in the MvF when they don't have an argument and have lost.

Either way, though, we're back to Xavier not demonstrating the prowess to subdue multiple telepaths in a manner relevant to the context of this thread.

No one's denying that Xavier is the superior telepath by sheer power and technique, but I have a hard time believe he's capable of mindraping fellow telepaths on their guard without some serious amp.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Either way, though, we're back to Xavier not demonstrating the prowess to subdue multiple telepaths in a manner relevant to the context of this thread.

No one's denying that Xavier is the superior telepath by sheer power and technique, but I have a hard time believe he's capable of mindraping fellow telepaths on their guard without some serious amp.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=598363&from=thread&pagenumber=1#post14797900

Moving there? Cool beans.

Yes.

And, also, I moved your trolling to PMs.

🙂

So I guess we're moving back here, dadudemon? Bump.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
So I guess we're moving back here, dadudemon? Bump.

All the time you've spent trolling and you could have already found the information your butt desperately needed. That's sad.

Out of curiosity, what about my posts constitute trolling? Asking questions, asking for proof of your claims, or simply remaining calm in the midst of your rage, my son?

Or all the above? mmm

Originally posted by Kotor3
Since my other was viewed as spite I have made a new one.

Yoda, Obi-wan, Mace, Anakin, and Fisto come into our world looking for an evil they sense through the force. The jedi sense they have found the evil in a new born baby who is a mutant. They encounter the X-Men who want to protect the baby.

Who wins?

Spite, Jedi lose.

Originally posted by Kotor3
That is the one used in the thread not bald Xavier. I gave the comparison of power level. Sidious can control a senate and Yoda is on the same level. From the movies the Senate consisted of a lot of people.

Wrong

There's no evidence that Sidious applied telepathy over the massed ranks of the Senate. There is evidence, however, that Sidious did apply some sort of telepathic shroud over the Force and the Jedi to blunt their precognition, ESP, and clairvoyance. (In the EU and supplement works, this is outright confirmed.)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
There's no evidence that Sidious applied telepathy over the massed ranks of the Senate. There is evidence, however, that Sidious did apply some sort of telepathic shroud over the Force and the Jedi to blunt their precognition, ESP, and clairvoyance. (In the EU and supplement works, this is outright confirmed.)

True.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
There's no evidence that Sidious applied telepathy over the massed ranks of the Senate. There is evidence, however, that Sidious did apply some sort of telepathic shroud over the Force and the Jedi to blunt their precognition, ESP, and clairvoyance. (In the EU and supplement works, this is outright confirmed.)

I would say that Sidious did not put a "telepathic shroud over the Force."

Rather, Sidious put an anti-telepathic shroud over Jedi-based farseeing. I say "Jedi-based" because it is likely he could still use the farseeing abilities of the force (but that is just speculation on my part). This was done through the force which is not solely a telepathic ability. It could just simply be a force ability that affects force-based telepathy: not necessarily another form of telepathy.

Originally posted by Kotor3
U mad bro?

Originally posted by Kotor3
Yeah we all saw the movies. What the hell is your point? Isn’t this the central theme of the prequels as to why Anakin’s faith and will to follow the Jedi code was broken?

Let me help you. They weren’t following the Jedi code something Anakin stated like a hundred times.

And my point was this: you equated strength of mind and will to being synonymous with following the tenets of the Jedi--tenets you listed in bullet point. Tenets I just explained were not being followed by said Jedi. So if willpower is needed to fight Xavier, and Jedi willpower is proven by their commitment to the Jedi tenets, and the Jedi are not following those tenets...

Originally posted by Kotor3
Yoda did not make up the Jedi code. Using the force for defense or to protect is part of the Jedi code. You know this so stop all the whining and ignorant statements.

Anyway, see the point right above this one for my response.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Whine, whine, whine, enough. No cares about your opinion of Yoda. Stay on topic. Fear leads to the dark-side. It took willpower and dedication on Anakin’s part not to see his mother all those years. What you disagree? It takes willpower not to fall in love? Why because these are natural things for people to do and that takes strength.

If you can’t understand that then stop replying.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Ok, you find the star wars movies to be stupid and scripted badly. Got it.

As you stated before emotions come into play. The dark-side uses negative emotions to fuel strength in the force where the light side does not. Hopes that helps answer your question about the difference between the two.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Reneged on what? What is your definition of willpower?

You said first before that "To control the force takes will power or a strong will." (seriously, you said that, back on page 6).

But then you said (on page 7) "to use the force does not require willpower" (emphasis mine)...

That's why I asked if you had reneged.

Originally posted by Kotor3
If the force relied only on emotions why did Yoda state to Luke that he failed to lift the ship because he did not believe? Which means he lack or lost faith.

Here are some definitions for you since you won’t look them up yourself: (Please tell me how emotions are not involved)
Will:
• The power of control over one's own actions or emotions
• A strong desire or determination to do something
• A person's choice or desire in a particular situation
• Mental powers manifested as wishing, choosing, desiring, or intending
o a disposition to act according to principles or ends

Willpower: The ability to control yourself : strong determination that allows you to do something difficult.

Faith:
• Confidence or trust in a person or thing.
• Belief that is not based on proof.

To use the force involves a person emotions. Willpower comes in the way they decide they will use the force. If to attack then you have the Desire or Will to cause harm. If to protect then you have the Desire or Will to protect or save life.

Willpower and emotions are not separate.

Alright, I'm gonna try to word something as clearly as possible so as to avoid any confusion. Here goes:

Jedi can only use the Force because of midichlorians. No matter how strong-willed or strong-minded someone is, use of the Force means nothing without those little critters. By those definitions you provided, the Jedi do indeed possess "wills", "willpower", "faith", and "emotions (feelings)". They utilize those elements in conjunction with their biology (the midis) to produce an effect, i.e. actually using the Force. Great, no problems there.

What I want you to provide for me is an explanation as to how the Jedi are so advanced on the mental stage as to resist Xavier's powers. Those elements (will, willpower, emotions, etc.) are all present in every person, and certainly in the ones we've seen him easily make puppets out of.

As far as you've described to me, the Jedi are just normal people with normal minds that have the added advantage of a birth-defect to give them some super powers, but are otherwise just as mentally normal (and fallible) as everyone else. So normal in fact that they were habitually "not following the code" as you just said. So normal that even Anakin, who resisted the very human urge to go back to his mother, eventually caved. Just like a normal person.

Do you see where I'm going with this? My complaining that the Jedi are too stupid for this match-up has nothing to do with my dislike of the films (though I do certainly dislike them). It's that, even with their powers, nothing is shown from these people that puts them in a whole new bracket of mental prowess. The PT's midichlorians and biologizing of the Force actually stripped any potential the Jedi had for having enhanced (or at least "enlightened"😉 minds. Now they're just... essentially mutants. Mutants with no feats on screen that suggests they can counter a psychic attack.

All that considered, that the Jedi are also incredibly stupid only hurts their odds even further.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Fine the X-Men can win. That was my opinion as to why I felt it would not so easy for this young version of Xavier to mind rape them. Still doesn’t change the fact that you are totally miss-representing the definition of willpower.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Untrained Luke was able to use his telepathic powers to contact Leia across space. She was not even on the same planet.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Xavier needs a device in order to find people when he is not near them.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Obi wan as a force ghost was able to contact Luke while he was on a ship out in space attacking the Death Star. In ESB he contacts Luke while his is on a planet.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Vader contacts Luke in ESB across space and again in ROTJ.

But no, Xavier needing an enhancing device to locate one mind amidst billions, with no inkling of where they are... yeah that's a lame-ass feat compared to what Vader and Luke did.