Jedi vs X-Men

QS is way too fast.

QS isn't in this one.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He did? When did he say it once?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And my point was this: you equated strength of mind and will to being synonymous with following the tenets of the Jedi--tenets you listed in bullet point. Tenets I just explained were not being followed by said Jedi. So if willpower is needed to fight Xavier, and Jedi willpower is proven by their commitment to the Jedi tenets, and the Jedi are not following those tenets...
Are you actually mad? Like, actually annoyed? Jesus...
Anyway, see the point right above this one for my response.
Seriously, I was just on the verge of adding another "U mad bro?" Guess I don't need to. Lighten up, I was actually having fun until now.

In all seriousness I do not believe me and you are going to agree because I our perspectives are different.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Did that answer come from the movies, or you? I don't care about fan excuses. The movie's statements are what are used here. [/QUOTE
The statements are not the exact words but don’t tell me you are not familiar with Yoda’s quotes on the dark-side. If you want me to post them then I will.

[QUOTE=14798679]Originally posted by Lord Lucien
[BJedi can only use the Force because of midichlorians. No matter how strong-willed or strong-minded someone is, use of the Force means nothing without those little critters. By those definitions you provided, the Jedi do indeed possess "wills", "willpower", "faith", and "emotions (feelings)". They utilize those elements in conjunction with their biology (the midis) to produce an effect, i.e. actually using the Force. Great, no problems there.
What I want you to provide for me is an explanation as to how the Jedi are so advanced on the mental stage as to resist Xavier's powers. Those elements (will, willpower, emotions, etc.) are all present in every person, and certainly in the ones we've seen him easily make puppets out of.

As far as you've described to me, the Jedi are just normal people with normal minds that have the added advantage of a birth-defect to give them some super powers, but are otherwise just as mentally normal (and fallible) as everyone else. So normal in fact that they were habitually "not following the code" as you just said. So normal that even Anakin, who resisted the very human urge to go back to his mother, eventually caved. Just like a normal person.

Do you see where I'm going with this? My complaining that the Jedi are too stupid for this match-up has nothing to do with my dislike of the films (though I do certainly dislike them). It's that, even with their powers, nothing is shown from these people that puts them in a whole new bracket of mental prowess. The PT's midichlorians and biologizing of the Force actually stripped any potential the Jedi had for having enhanced (or at least "enlightened"😉 minds. Now they're just... essentially mutants. Mutants with no feats on screen that suggests they can counter a psychic attack.
All that considered, that the Jedi are also incredibly stupid only hurts their odds even further.
[/B]

Now in answer to your question:
“What I want you to provide for me is an explanation as to how the Jedi are so advanced on the mental stage as to resist Xavier's powers. Those elements (will, willpower, emotions, etc.) are all present in every person, and certainly in the ones we've seen him easily make puppets out of.”

Points
1. The Jedi have shown the ability to control minds of various species (something we have not seen from Xavier). This just means the force allows telepathy in ways perhaps Xavier mutant powers might be restricted. This of course is an assumption.
a. AOTC Obi-Wan to a random person who obey his command to review his life and change it.
b. Episode 1 Qui-Gon tries to mind control and alien who was immune to the ability to obtain Anakin.
c. Luke mind controls a being into letting him see Jaba the Hutt.
2. The ability to communicate across space. Something we have never seen Xavier do with other telepaths who were not near him or without his device.
a. Untrained Luke contacts Leia through telepathy
3. Ability to block inner thoughts from other telepaths.
a. Sidious from the Jedi
b. Luke and Vader from Sidious

So, I do not see the Jedi as weak in terms of telepathic powers. They have other powers that they use to subdue individuals so we do not always see them use it unlike Xavier who must relied on his telepathic powers.

So, if the force users, telepath worked the same way as Xavier then they would probably lose to him. But they are using the force which powers are unlimited and enable to them to do things we have not seen Xavier do.

I missed some of your post and will respond to it also.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Are you talking about when he called for her help after his fight with Vader? They were both on Bespin. Luke was still under Cloud City and Leia was still on the Falcon flying away from the city--still in the cloud layer.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
When they are surrounded by billions of other people, yes he does need a device to sift through them all to one.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
He was an incorporeal ghost with no body or physical constraints. That's not a mental feat, that's a ghost doing what ghosts do.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Across, several kilometers of empty space? Luke was in the Falcon the first time not too far from the Executor. He was in the Imperial shuttle the second time only several kilometers at most between himself and Vader. And Vader knew exactly where to look both times. Both times the ship Luke was on was in plain sight of the bridge, with Vader looking straight toward them.

But no, Xavier needing an enhancing device to locate one mind amidst billions, with no inkling of where they are... yeah that's a lame-ass feat compared to what Vader and Luke did.

Where is it stated that Jedi/Sith have extremely strong willed and not easily manipulated by each other, therefore somehow they can stop a mind control like Xaviers? Because everything from the movies and books points to the opposite, they can be turned to the dark side

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Where is it stated that Jedi/Sith have extremely strong willed and not easily manipulated by each other, therefore somehow they can stop a mind control like Xaviers? Because everything from the movies and books points to the opposite, they can be turned to the dark side

Xavier's powers don't even work in the same way as the Force Users. That's because he doesn't have the Force.

So any resistance they have developed against force-based telepathy is useless because Xavier's telepathy is not force based.

I explained this, already. 🙁

Originally posted by Kotor3
Come on Lucien are you playing with me. He implied this multiple times in ROTS. Asking Obi-Wan why were the Jedi asking him to do things that were only not treason but against Jedi code. That is just one example.

Originally posted by Kotor3
So, if the force users, telepath worked the same way as Xavier then they would probably lose to him. But they are using the force which powers are unlimited and enable to them to do things we have not seen Xavier do.

There is nothing about Xavier's opposition in this thread that suggests they are capable of tanking or repelling his attack. If their Force-telepathy isn't the same as his mutant-telepathy, then they have no defence from his attacks, and their own attacks are never shown to be substantial enough to overcome someone with such a formidable mind as Xavier (he's no "weak-minded fool" as Jabba would say). Xavier undoubtedly has a strong mind--Ben would not be able to "influence" him as he did the weak-minded trooper. To conclude, there's two options:

1.) Both telepathies are alike, but the Jedi are only shown to semi-competent in terms of mind-rape. They are good at suggesting courses of action to some poeple, but lack the ability to out-and-out Pinnochio people, as Xavier can. That massive gap in magnitude and control puts the ball firmly in Xavier's court.

2.) The telepathies stand apart from one another, but the second-half of #1 still stands.

There is nothing shown in the Star Wars films that suggests the Jedi are capable of holding their own against Xavier, even a young one.

I just went through that entire post without mentioning how dumb the Jedi ar---and fail.

EDIT: Holds on, don't respond yet! I'll get the rest.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I am pretty sure she was already out in space.

YouTube video

Originally posted by Kotor3
It doesn’t explain why Qui-Gon never contacted Anakin.

Not that I would say much for Qui-Gon otherwise...

Originally posted by Kotor3
It seems that you are diminishing a feat of Luke’s to make your as standout. How you came to those calculations I do not know. But I know Leia was miles away from Luke. If you feel locating someone with miles of empty space between you is not impressive then, Ok. I do.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Where is it stated that Jedi/Sith have extremely strong willed and not easily manipulated by each other, therefore somehow they can stop a mind control like Xaviers? Because everything from the movies and books points to the opposite, they can be turned to the dark side

Originally posted by dadudemon
Xavier's powers don't even work in the same way as the Force Users. That's because he doesn't have the Force.

So any resistance they have developed against force-based telepathy is useless because Xavier's telepathy is not force based.

I explained this, already. 🙁

Originally posted by Kotor3

Points
1. The Jedi have shown the ability to control minds of various species (something we have not seen from Xavier). This just means the force allows telepathy in ways perhaps Xavier mutant powers might be restricted. This of course is an assumption.
a. AOTC Obi-Wan to a random person who obey his command to review his life and change it.
b. Episode 1 Qui-Gon tries to mind control and alien who was immune to the ability to obtain Anakin.
c. Luke mind controls a being into letting him see Jaba the Hutt.
2. The ability to communicate across space. Something we have never seen Xavier do with other telepaths who were not near him or without his device.
a. Untrained Luke contacts Leia through telepathy
3. Ability to block inner thoughts from other telepaths.
a. Sidious from the Jedi
b. Luke and Vader from Sidious

1. They have shown to control the minds of the feeble and weak. Anyone with strong mental will and or certain species, they have zero power over.
2. He met some drunk guy at a bar. I could talk a drunk person into changing their life at a bar while drunk. Add in force powers, to someone with no resistance..Not a big feat. What proof do you have he went and changed his whole life after that scene?
3. Again, Qui Gon's powers are limited and so are the powers of the force in this case.
4. Luke talked his way into Jabba's palace, and he thought he could talk his way out..Didn't work.
5. Jean and Xavier could talk to people telepathically.
6. Untrained Luke also happened to be the most powerful one of all right, like his father was untrained and able to fly pods that no other human could do with zero training. Like father like son.

Ahh, okay. See, even I didn't know what you meant. lol

Originally posted by dadudemon
Ahh, okay. See, even I didn't know what you meant. lol

I feel like the Jedi and Sith get tricked more then anyone else in the stories and they are supposed to be the ones that are "un trick- able?"

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I feel like the Jedi and Sith get tricked more then anyone else in the stories and they are supposed to be the ones that are "un trick- able?"

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
There's often a breakdown of communications between what fans imagine of their favourite characters (or more specifically for the Jedi, their favourite powers) and what the movies actually show us.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Can I have some more? It's been forever since I've seen them. I don't recall Anakin specifically calling out the Order for being un-Jedi-like. I know he recoils at Obi-Wan asking him to spy, but that's about it, and he didn't phrase it like he was appalled at it for going against the Code or anything like that.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This is actually the crux of it all right here. Two separate franchises with two separate superpowers. There's no way to actually mesh the two in to something coherent and consistent. But to soldier on:

There is nothing about Xavier's opposition in this thread that suggests they are capable of tanking or repelling his attack. If their Force-telepathy isn't the same as his mutant-telepathy, then they have no defence from his attacks, and their own attacks are never shown to be substantial enough to overcome someone with such a formidable mind as Xavier (he's no "weak-minded fool" as Jabba would say). Xavier undoubtedly has a strong mind--Ben would not be able to "influence" him as he did the weak-minded trooper. To conclude, there's two options:

1.) Both telepathies are alike, but the Jedi are only shown to semi-competent in terms of mind-rape. They are good at suggesting courses of action to some poeple, but lack the ability to out-and-out Pinnochio people, as Xavier can. That massive gap in magnitude and control puts the ball firmly in Xavier's court.

2.) The telepathies stand apart from one another, but the second-half of #1 still stands.

So the same can be said that Xavier does not have defense from the force. Now these strong minded people that you are referring to in the Star Wars universe according to my knowledge have never been human but alien species who are immune to the telepathic abilities. For all we know this could be biological.

Now I have no problem with Xavier being the superior telepath but he is not going against one telepath but multiple. Even for Bald Xavier, I do not see how mind raping multiple telepaths would be easy let alone possible. I do not recall him doing so.

Lastly, you feel that the Jedi telepathic powers are not very strong. I can accept that you feel that way due to movie feats. Still I do not see them that low for Xavier to just mind rape them as if they weren’t telepaths. [/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Lord Lucien

EDIT: Holds on, don't respond yet! I'll get the rest.

In the clouds:

YouTube video

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I think it's been a while since you watched the OT. The Falcon and the Shuttle Tyderium were in eye-shot of Vader on the bridge. The Falcon flew right alongside the Executor's hull while being chased by TIEs. And again, Xavier sifted through billions, Vader sifted through like 4 and 20, respectively. And he was looking for the only other Force-user amidst those tiny groups. That's not impressive, comparatively.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I look for quotes later. I’m too lazy to do so now.

If you find them, I'll change my position on you, entirely.

I do not recall what you're talking about being stated in the movies. The closest we get to that is Mace wanting to execute Palps for his war crimes and treason instead of standing trial (because Palps controlled all dat shit and would go free).

But, if you find quotes that directly back up what you're claiming...holy shit, that's a completely different level to the Star Wars Prequel Trilogy that did not exist in my mind. It really does justify Anakin's evolution into Vader (as one of the drivers that sent him there) IF what you say is correct. That should piss of Lord Lucien because he HATES the PT and thinks it had poor writing. 🙂

So, yeah, I'm pretty dang sure you're wrong about this. 😐

George Lucas explains why Anakin went dark:

In a 2002 Time magazine interview, George Lucas explained the personal level through a type of pop-Buddhism: “He turns into Darth Vader because he gets attached to things. He can’t let go of his mother; he can’t let go of his girlfriend. He can’t let go of things. It makes you greedy. And when you’re greedy, you are on the path to the dark side, because you fear you’re going to lose things.” -end snip Full Story Here

I found a link to what appears to be the 2002 Time article, but you need an account to access the archives

Originally posted by Kotor3
Excuse me for deleting parts of your post I just think it is less confusing. That is the meat of the argument. As you stated before it has to be in biology of the person to be able to use the force. Xavier’s powers are biological also. Now they may originate from different sources but both are biological.

So the same can be said that Xavier does not have defense from the force. Now these strong minded people that you are referring to in the Star Wars universe according to my knowledge have never been human but alien species who are immune to the telepathic abilities. For all we know this could be biological.

Now I have no problem with Xavier being the superior telepath but he is not going against one telepath but multiple. Even for Bald Xavier, I do not see how mind raping multiple telepaths would be easy let alone possible. I do not recall him doing so.

Lastly, you feel that the Jedi telepathic powers are not very strong. I can accept that you feel that way due to movie feats. Still I do not see them that low for Xavier to just mind rape them as if they weren’t telepaths.

The 'biological thing' was my point in listing the two possible routes to approach this. Either their telepathy is the exact same thing, just with a different applicator, or they're entirely different from one another and neither can use their own to defend against the other. In which case it will come to "who strikes first, hardest."

And that achievement I fully see going to Xavier. The Jedi of the films are seen to need weak-minded fools and simpletons to coerce. As far as the movies tell us, the mind tricks are the greatest feat of power their psychic attacks have going for them. Without an easy mark with a simple mind to target, the Jedi may well have absolutely no power over their opposition, regardless of if they're telepaths, mutants, Force-users, or philosophy graduates. (Or they might, but movie feats only, I refuse to give in to the "no-limits fallacy" or any amount of "well, let's just assume"😉. Additionally, the nature of Xavier's attacks is total puppeteering. The nature of the Jedi's "attacks" are more about influencing courses of action--making people not realize something, or making something sound like a great idea. That probably explains why someone needs to have a weak mind--it makes them susceptible to suggestion and subtle coercion. Xavier's utter domination of someone's mind and body is many orders of magnitude higher in effect and control.

Yet still, given the small and limited application of the Jedi mind attacks, the only psychic feats the movies provide the Jedi are ones used against the weakest of minds--"fools". Xavier is leagues upon leagues above such cretins like:

-Nameless patrol trooper #8
-Nameless drug dealer in a nightclub
-Nameless assistant to Jabba
-Boss Nass
-And Jar Jar.

Those are the only successful psychic attacks in the 6 films--three of the marks were against three different species other than human; Twi'lek, Gungan, and Deathstick-guy. And frankly... well, to say I'm not impressed when they're stacked against everything even young Xavier did would be one hell of an understatement.

Originally posted by dadudemon
That should piss of Lord Lucien because he HATES the PT and thinks it had poor writing. 🙂

Are people actually arguing that Luke did not contact Leia via the force?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
I think the term mind-rape is being misused in it's frequency here. I would call Xavier's command over other people a "mind-rape". The Jedi mind tricks are more like... mind-gropes. Still offensive, but far more easily repelled and defended against.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
The 'biological thing' was my point in listing the two possible routes to approach this. Either their telepathy is the exact same thing, just with a different applicator, or they're entirely different from one another and neither can use their own to defend against the other. In which case it will come to "who strikes first, hardest."

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
And that achievement I fully see going to Xavier. The Jedi of the films are seen to need weak-minded fools and simpletons to coerce. As far as the movies tell us, the mind tricks are the greatest feat of power their psychic attacks have going for them. Without an easy mark with a simple mind to target, the Jedi may well have absolutely no power over their opposition, regardless of if they're telepaths, mutants, Force-users, or philosophy graduates. (Or they might, but movie feats only, I refuse to give in to the "no-limits fallacy" or any amount of "well, let's just assume"😉.

As for the no limits fallacy, ok I understand. For this discussion I will leave it out also. However, in all fairness the force has a no limits fallacy to it. We are not really aware of all of its limitations.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Additionally, the nature of Xavier's attacks is total puppeteering. The nature of the Jedi's "attacks" are more about influencing courses of action--making people not realize something, or making something sound like a great idea. That probably explains why someone needs to have a weak mind--it makes them susceptible to suggestion and subtle coercion. Xavier's utter domination of someone's mind and body is many orders of magnitude higher in effect and control.

Xavier definitely has the superior movies feats. From that point of view I agree that he is the superior telepath.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Yet still, given the small and limited application of the Jedi mind attacks, the only psychic feats the movies provide the Jedi are ones used against the weakest of minds--"fools". Xavier is leagues upon leagues above such cretins like:

-Nameless patrol trooper #8
-Nameless drug dealer in a nightclub
-Nameless assistant to Jabba
-Boss Nass
-And Jar Jar.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Those are the only successful psychic attacks in the 6 films--three of the marks were against three different species other than human; Twi'lek, Gungan, and Deathstick-guy. And frankly... well, to say I'm not impressed when they're stacked against everything even young Xavier did would be one hell of an understatement.

Here are my scenarios to support the Jedi in this battle. Remember we are using the no limits fallacy.

Yoda and Fisto minds cannot be controlled by Xavier since they are not human. This leaves a battle between Anakin, Mace, and Obi-Wan against Xavier. While Yoda and Fisto are available to fight the other X-Men.
Since Xavier had trouble with Shaw and was able to enter Emma mind after she was subdued by Magneto, I see this being a battle between three telepaths vs one. If Xavier gets the upper hand, well for how long? You still have Yoda and Fisto who could attack Xavier with the force at any time breaking his mental assault on the other Jedi.

Here is what I see:
Xavier assaults Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Windu, Yoda senses this and Fisto. Magneto attacks with the other X-Men. Yoda is too fast to be hit by the other X-Men who also are fighting Fisto who is using his TK to immobilize the X-Men.
Yoda attacks Xavier rendering him unconscious with TK which breaks his mental assault on the other Jedi who join the fight. Now without Xavier, I do not see the X-Men winning. Magneto may just delay the inevitable.