Jedi vs X-Men

Originally posted by Kotor3
From what is displayed in the movies I agree.

I can agree with this also.

So, I have to ask why or what make you say that the person has to be weak-minded? I remember no text on context that would implied that your statement is true. Only alien species have shown immunity to Jedi telepathy. From the movies that is a very minor group. I can only remember two instances of resistance. That seem to be because of the biological nature of the species.

As for the no limits fallacy, ok I understand. For this discussion I will leave it out also. However, in all fairness the force has a no limits fallacy to it. We are not really aware of all of its limitations.

Xavier’s ability is his only ability which would definitely make sense as to why it is explore more and use in the way he uses it. The Jedi have many more abilities and do not need to subdue a person with telepath. It is just one of the ways they can do so. Since we are not using the no limits fallacy I won’t say a Jedi can dominate a person mind even though to me it is implied.

Xavier definitely has the superior movies feats. From that point of view I agree that he is the superior telepath.

Unless you can show me something that states these individuals to be weak-minded, I do not accept this a proof of your claim or statement.

The point here is that the Jedi have had no issues with telepath on humans. We have no proof that Xavier’s telepath works on anything but humans. I do not recall him controlling animals.

Here are my scenarios to support the Jedi in this battle. Remember we are using the no limits fallacy.

Yoda and Fisto minds cannot be controlled by Xavier since they are not human. This leaves a battle between Anakin, Mace, and Obi-Wan against Xavier. While Yoda and Fisto are available to fight the other X-Men.
Since Xavier had trouble with Shaw and was able to enter Emma mind after she was subdued by Magneto, I see this being a battle between three telepaths vs one. If Xavier gets the upper hand, well for how long? You still have Yoda and Fisto who could attack Xavier with the force at any time breaking his mental assault on the other Jedi.

Here is what I see:
Xavier assaults Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Windu, Yoda senses this and Fisto. Magneto attacks with the other X-Men. Yoda is too fast to be hit by the other X-Men who also are fighting Fisto who is using his TK to immobilize the X-Men.
Yoda attacks Xavier rendering him unconscious with TK which breaks his mental assault on the other Jedi who join the fight. Now without Xavier, I do not see the X-Men winning. Magneto may just delay the inevitable.

Originally posted by Kotor3
So, I have to ask why or what make you say that the person has to be weak-minded? I remember no text on context that would implied that your statement is true. Only alien species have shown immunity to Jedi telepathy. From the movies that is a very minor group. I can only remember two instances of resistance. That seem to be because of the biological nature of the species.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Unless you can show me something that states these individuals to be weak-minded, I do not accept this a proof of your claim or statement.

DIzAaY2Jm-s?t=4m

I wish there was more to go on within the films, but I'm quite content with Ben's words. Successful mind tricks require a weak-minded target. And to use his very word, it's more of an "influence" than it is an attack, or a domination.

By Obi-Wan's criteria of a mind trick (I have no reason to not accept it), weak minds are required for successful influence. It's hardly an unreasonable conclusion to come to that the times we witness it's success must be on individuals with a certain... lacking of mental fortitude. Indeed the victims I listed previously certainly passed for what I would unhesitatingly refer to as "idiots". The two times we see it rebuffed are against Jabba--who admonishes his butler's weak mind for falling for the same trick (this is a secondary, though non-Jedi, in-movie source for the requirement of a weak mind), and Watto, whose words imply that his species can withstand it.

It seems the requirements for resisting a Jedi mind attack are the right genetics (like Watto) or as Obi-Wan and Jabba would put it, not having a "weak mind."

Originally posted by Kotor3
The point here is that the Jedi have had no issues with telepath on humans. We have no proof that Xavier’s telepath works on anything but humans. I do not recall him controlling animals.

The mutants of the X-Men films are neither called nor treated as, humans. All the mutants (Xavier included) view mutants as fundamentally different from humans on the genetic level--it's the driving theme of the film and the way to go about handling that fact drives the motives of the two central characters. What snippets of science we get in the films match the rhetoric. That Xavier has dominated the minds of both these is something of an indication that his power is not limited to human minds.

On the other hand, one could argue that it isn't an issue of genetics, but rather an issue of mental make-up. Alien minds are too extremely different from humans. If that is being put forward here, I would ask for a demonstration. All the intelligent aliens (and certainly all the Jedi we're shown) operate on a human level. There's nothing about their mental make-up, their disposition, their attitude, their emotions, their anything, that suggests that their minds are anyway different from humans' (or humans from theirs'😉. In real life, that would totally make sense for them to be, but in the Star Wars films... it doesn't seem to be a part of their reality (wishful thinking and supposition on our part notwithstanding).

Originally posted by Kotor3
Here are my scenarios to support the Jedi in this battle. Remember we are using the no limits fallacy.

Yoda and Fisto minds cannot be controlled by Xavier since they are not human. This leaves a battle between Anakin, Mace, and Obi-Wan against Xavier. While Yoda and Fisto are available to fight the other X-Men.
Since Xavier had trouble with Shaw and was able to enter Emma mind after she was subdued by Magneto, I see this being a battle between three telepaths vs one. If Xavier gets the upper hand, well for how long? You still have Yoda and Fisto who could attack Xavier with the force at any time breaking his mental assault on the other Jedi.

Here is what I see:
Xavier assaults Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Windu, Yoda senses this and Fisto. Magneto attacks with the other X-Men. Yoda is too fast to be hit by the other X-Men who also are fighting Fisto who is using his TK to immobilize the X-Men.
Yoda attacks Xavier rendering him unconscious with TK which breaks his mental assault on the other Jedi who join the fight. Now without Xavier, I do not see the X-Men winning. Magneto may just delay the inevitable.

Xavier instantly overwhelms all the Jedi's minds while Magneto grabs their lightsabers, shreds them, and eviscerates their bodies with the shards.

I've seen no reason to believe that Xavier's telepathy is useless against non-human minds.
I've seen no reason to believe that the Jedi possess anything other than ordinary minds attached to extraordinary super-microbes.
I've seen no reason to believe that the Jedi possess mental attacks that can harm Xavier's mind (or Magneto's, or Mystique's or any of the X-Men [as I've seen no reason to believe that these mutants are weak-minded]).
I've seen no reason to believe that Magneto and Xavier can't use the their powers with overwhelming expediency and lethality.
I've seen absolutely no reason to make me believe that the Jedi survive more than 5 seconds in a PIS-free fight.

I've said all I can say on the subject, and I haven't convinced you, nor vice versa. I won't attempt further after this.

Well, I enjoyed the conversation.

Hey, I got an idea, list the people who were frozen by Xavier.

THe only people that have shown any kind of resistance to Xavier ar other telepaths. Jedi only have minor telepathic abilities. I think the most important thing to remember when asking how powerful the Jedis telepathy is, their abilities of telepathy were all clouded and quelled by just one sith.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Hey, I got an idea, list the people who were frozen by Xavier.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Obi-Wan's description (jump to the 4 minute mark):

DIzAaY2Jm-s?t=4m

I wish there was more to go on within the films, but I'm quite content with Ben's words. Successful mind tricks require a weak-minded target. And to use his very word, it's more of an "influence" than it is an attack, or a domination.

By Obi-Wan's criteria of a mind trick (I have no reason to not accept it), weak minds are required for successful influence. It's hardly an unreasonable conclusion to come to that the times we witness it's success must be on individuals with a certain... lacking of mental fortitude. Indeed the victims I listed previously certainly passed for what I would unhesitatingly refer to as "idiots". The two times we see it rebuffed are against Jabba--who admonishes his butler's weak mind for falling for the same trick (this is a secondary, though non-Jedi, in-movie source for the requirement of a weak mind), and Watto, whose words imply that his species can withstand it.

It seems the requirements for resisting a Jedi mind attack are the right genetics (like Watto) or as Obi-Wan and Jabba would put it, not having a "weak mind."

There's one caveat to add to this*

The mutants of the X-Men films are neither called nor treated as, humans. All the mutants (Xavier included) view mutants as fundamentally different from humans on the genetic level--it's the driving theme of the film and the way to go about handling that fact drives the motives of the two central characters. What snippets of science we get in the films match the rhetoric. That Xavier has dominated the minds of both these is something of an indication that his power is not limited to human minds.

On the other hand, one could argue that it isn't an issue of genetics, but rather an issue of mental make-up. Alien minds are too extremely different from humans. If that is being put forward here, I would ask for a demonstration. All the intelligent aliens (and certainly all the Jedi we're shown) operate on a human level. There's nothing about their mental make-up, their disposition, their attitude, their emotions, their anything, that suggests that their minds are anyway different from humans' (or humans from theirs'😉. In real life, that would totally make sense for them to be, but in the Star Wars films... it doesn't seem to be a part of their reality (wishful thinking and supposition on our part notwithstanding).

Here's what I see:

Xavier instantly overwhelms all the Jedi's minds while Magneto grabs their lightsabers, shreds them, and eviscerates their bodies with the shards.

I've seen no reason to believe that Xavier's telepathy is useless against non-human minds.
I've seen no reason to believe that the Jedi possess anything other than ordinary minds attached to extraordinary super-microbes.
I've seen no reason to believe that the Jedi possess mental attacks that can harm Xavier's mind (or Magneto's, or Mystique's or any of the X-Men [as I've seen no reason to believe that these mutants are weak-minded]).
I've seen no reason to believe that Magneto and Xavier can't use the their powers with overwhelming expediency and lethality.
I've seen absolutely no reason to make me believe that the Jedi survive more than 5 seconds in a PIS-free fight.

I've said all I can say on the subject, and I haven't convinced you, nor vice versa. I won't attempt further after this.

Lol, love the dodging going on here.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Hey, I got an idea, list the people who were frozen by Xavier.

Okay:

-A mall full of people

-FBI building full of people

-An airport (or at least a terminal and any outside person entering said terminal) full of people

-An extremely amped-up Shaw

Those are just the "frozen" people I can recall; I'm not counting the people he affected by other means with his mind.

Originally posted by Robtard
Okay:

-A mall full of people

-FBI building full of people

-An airport (or at least a terminal and any outside person entering said terminal) full of people

-An extremely amped-up Shaw

Those are just the "frozen" people I can recall; I'm not counting the people he affected by other means with his mind.

You're an idiot. Explain with evidence, how a mutant's mind - for example - Cyclop's is different from a "human's", except for his optic blast abilities.

BTW, He also controlled Sabretooth and Toad. Sabretooth has resistance to telepathy. (X-men Origins).

Originally posted by Placidity
You're an idiot. Explain with evidence, how a mutant's mind - for example - Cyclop's is different from a "human's", except for his optic blast abilities.

BTW, He also controlled Sabretooth and Toad. Sabretooth has resistance to telepathy. (X-men Origins).

1. U mad.

2. Answer me this: Are mutants and humans the same? Also, are Force sensitives and non force sensitives the same?

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
1. U mad.

2. Answer me this: Are mutants and humans the same? Also, are Force sensitives and non force sensitives the same?

Glad you admit you can't answer the question.

Originally posted by Placidity
Glad you admit you can't answer the question.

Lol, this is your comeback? OK, let's try this another way.

In X Men first class, Xavier froze the building filled with humans. Now, say the building was filled with mutants, not humans. Could he still freeze them all?

I asked you a straightforward question. Either answer it or concede. Replying with a question is a nonanswer.

Do it again and I'll accept your concession.

Originally posted by Placidity
I asked you a straightforward question. Either answer it or concede. Replying with a question is a nonanswer.

Do it again and I'll accept your concession.

Wow the "can Xavier froze the Jedi" argument really cut loose here.

Perhaps he can, perhaps he can't, but not before a Jedi speedblizes him 😛

Originally posted by Stigma
Wow the "can Xavier froze the Jedi" argument really cut loose here.

Perhaps he can, perhaps he can't, but not before a Jedi speedblizes him 😛