Force Users vs. X-men (unbiased and clean)

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Scenario 1: Quicksilver blitzes the holy shit out of them instantly, or Xavier mind ****s the humans and the rest get taken out by the team.

Scenario 2: Quicksilver blitzes the holy shit out of them instantly, or Cyclops takes off his visor and blasts all of them to shit with a beam too big to block with a lightsaber.

Basically, Quicksilver solos all around. Almost seems like spite, but there are people actually arguing for the SWs team apparently.

Uhhh...yeah.

I was thinking that Quicksilver was a bit much but included him because Force Users have battle precog (allowing them to anticipate where he is going). I do know the battle precog can be overwhelmed. I still have not seen a calculation that shows how fast Quick Silver genuinely moves.

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
This. Quicksilver solos.

EDIT: Cracked actually posted an article today that linked to this Wired article. In it, Rhett Alain calculated (using the movie) that Quicksilver was traveling at a high-end speed of 9091 m/s, or at a low-end speed of 4091 m/s.

Oh...well...

Originally posted by dadudemon
I do concede that this is a good point. We cannot know if a more local/concentrated dose of his "kill" power is any faster (no Cerebro, only Xavier). It is possible it takes far longer to kill 7 billion people (or millions of mutants) than it does just 4-10 people. We just don't know. There is nothing to suggest it would be any shorter.

Force users, and I was sure to choose the best from the movies, should be able to still be at least partially functional due to their training, while Xavier is killing them. I don't see why they couldn't at least pull-off a force push or pull while getting their brain liquefied.

👆

Doesn't matter, though. Quicksilver has this in the bag.

Scenario one: The Jedi cut the power to the mansion and rape.

Scenario two: Xavier has only been shown freezing large groups of HUMANS. he never, not once, froze a large group of mutants. Now, since the Jedi are pretty much mutants in SWverse, there is nothing to suggest that Xavier can freeze them.

UNLESS the X Men supporters are going to argue that he can, just cuz.

X-men win.

I win.

It's over.

obviously the khan skull crush FTW or orca teeth to the neck

Originally posted by Kotor3
Nonsense. You know what I consider non-sense is someone saying that Xavier rapes other multiple telepaths all at once with ease. Or that someone moves so fast they cannot be sense through the force.

Please quote me where I said he rapes multiple telepaths at once with ease. I said he could take out any of the human Jedi mentally. I never said he was taking them all on at once, or that he does it with ease. Or where I said that Quicksilver cannot be sensed through the force. I said he will hit them while they are still busy trying to sense him. It has nothing to do with what the force is capable. It has to do with how fast a person can process information. Because he can literally move faster than people can think.

Only people in any of the X-films to fully resist Xavier was a diamond Emma Frost and Phoenix Jean (and none of the force users are on her level). X2 showed that a cerebro boosted Xavier could kill any human or mutant via his mind, regardless of their willpower. In fact, a whole planet's worth. So I am basing what I say off of his actual movie feats. You made the claim that being force users will make them different and less susceptible to his powers than what everyone else (other than the 2 mentioned) has been shown as being. So you need to prove this.

As to your other claims about Magneto... the train scene and the sentinel scene at the end shows that he doesn't need direct line of site, or to even be in the immediate vicinity of what he is controlling, to exercise very fine and precise control over multiple objects.

Originally posted by Kotor3
I cannot be serious when people post comments like that with no proof. Sidious has the ability to force choke everyone.

Oh the sheer irony of this statement. Sidious has never force choked several people, out of his line of sight (or even in his line of sight), at once on screen. Yet you claim he can. Yet I use actual screen feats, showing what the characters are capable of, and it's not good enough for you.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Yes, i recognize Quicksilver can kill them. I already stated that. But do you recognize that he can be killed with the force if he does not take out the force users promptly?

Well duh... choke anyone long enough and they will die. But considering his monumental speed advantage (and the amount of force this adds to any of his attacks), he will kill all 7 of them with 7 individual punches. End of discussion.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Please quote me where I said he rapes [B]multiple telepaths at once with ease. I said he could take out any of the human Jedi mentally. I never said he was taking them all on at once, or that he does it with ease. Or where I said that Quicksilver cannot be sensed through the force. I said he will hit them while they are still busy trying to sense him. It has nothing to do with what the force is capable. It has to do with how fast a person can process information. Because he can literally move faster than people can think. [/B]

Glad to see that you are able to view both perspectives reasonably.

As for Quicksliver, even when I was trolling I admitted that he would be a problem and could take out the X-Men. Since this thread allows you to use any version of the characters. I would include armored suited Vader.

Vader’s armor has tanked a lightsaber hit and laser blast in ESB. Unless Quicksilver has super strength, I see broken bones once he hits Vader armor. Which would allow a long enough pause for Vader to kill him. That is why I said if he doesn’t take them out immediately he is gone. Also I have never seen a force choke last more than a few secs.

If Quick concentrates on multiple hits on one person that may be too much time for a thought process to come in that would register a force attack. Those are the scenarios I see for quicksilver.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Only people in any of the X-films to fully resist Xavier was a diamond Emma Frost and Phoenix Jean (and none of the force users are on her level). X2 showed that a cerebro boosted Xavier could kill any human or mutant via his mind, regardless of their willpower. In fact, a whole planet's worth. So I am basing what I say off of his actual movie feats. You made the claim that being force users will make them different and less susceptible to his powers than what [B]everyone else (other than the 2 mentioned) has been shown as being. So you need to prove this. [/B]

So without repeating my argument in another thread. Lets say Xavier is able to win the battle with the human force users. Yoda and fisto are going to sense this. This would leave Yoda and Fisto who would sense this and attack Xavier and render him unconscious releasing the other Jedi.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
As to your other claims about Magneto... the train scene and the sentinel scene at the end shows that he doesn't need direct line of site, or to even be in the immediate vicinity of what he is controlling, to exercise very fine and precise control over multiple objects.

Oh the sheer irony of this statement. Sidious has never force choked several people, out of his line of sight (or even in his line of sight), at once on screen. Yet you claim he can. Yet I use actual screen feats, showing what the characters are capable of, and it's not good enough for you.

Well duh... choke anyone long enough and they will die. But considering his monumental speed advantage (and the amount of force this adds to any of his attacks), he will kill all 7 of them with 7 individual punches. End of discussion.

TheVaultDweller
Only people in any of the X-films to fully resist Xavier was a diamond Emma Frost and Phoenix Jean (and none of the force users are on her level).

As I recall, Frost and Grey are the only enemy telepaths Xavier ever encounters. The rest, for all we know, were Muggles or had no telepathic prowess to speak of. The Jedi, while not as capable as Xavier, are indeed telepathic. Why should we assume that his powers would work in a combat scenario effectively against rival telepaths?

TheVaultDweller
X2 showed that a cerebro boosted Xavier could kill any human or mutant via his mind, regardless of their willpower. In fact, a whole planet's worth. So I am basing what I say off of his actual movie feats.

To be fair, as I pointed out to dadudemon, Cerebro!Xavier failed to actually kill any of his victims, even ones like Mystique who were just outside the door. That's plenty of time for Jedi and Sith to snap necks. (Not that it matters because of Quicksilver.)

TheVaultDweller
Oh the sheer irony of this statement. Sidious has never force choked several people, out of his line of sight (or even in his line of sight), at once on screen. Yet you claim he can. Yet I use actual screen feats, showing what the characters are capable of, and it's not good enough for you.

I agree that we should be able to use deduction and inference without resigning ourselves totally to screen feats. (Otherwise one could say "Sidious never used Force lightning on Magneto in the films so prove he could!!1!oneone!!!"😉

It's not incredible assume that Sidious can Force choke multiple people given he's telekinetically thrown car-sized Senate platforms like wiffle balls and in light of the telekinetic feats of his lesser apprentices (Vader & Dooku).

Quicksilver still solos, though.

QS is literally hundreds of times faster than the FU's, he solos.

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Scenario one: The Jedi cut the power to the mansion and rape.

Scenario two: Xavier has only been shown freezing large groups of HUMANS. he never, not once, froze a large group of mutants. Now, since the Jedi are pretty much mutants in SWverse, there is nothing to suggest that Xavier can freeze them.

UNLESS the X Men supporters are going to argue that he can, just cuz.

Your argument is silly, man. Xavier's mind-powers > Force-users going by screen feats.

Jedi aren't mutants. They just happen to have more midichlorians than other people. Xavier has the ability to affect/kill every mutant and human on the planet with Cerebro extending his range. There's no reason to believe be couldn't affect masses of mutants (barring other very powerful telepaths that are on his level or greater) as he did the mall full of people. eg He had no problem mind-dominating Toad and Sabretooth, while Magneto was only safe in that scene due to the helmet in X1.

A possible argument could be made that Xavier's powers won't work on the non human Jedi. But that's all a guess.

But if you want to be silly, Xavier need only turn Sidious, Mace and Anakin against the others, then the X-Men can clean up any leftovers.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Vader’s armor has tanked a lightsaber hit and laser blast in ESB. Unless Quicksilver has super strength, I see broken bones once he hits Vader armor. Which would allow a long enough pause for Vader to kill him. That is why I said if he doesn’t take them out immediately he is gone. Also I have never seen a force choke last more than a few secs.

Thing is, Quicksilver himself has to have durability well beyond any human to be able to move at the speeds he does and not be injured. An example is when he held Magneto's neck to prevent whiplash, when he took him through that corridor. Speeds he handles just fine. Or even the simple cheek poking feat. If he had normal human durability, his finger would have snapped when he poked that guard. Or his leg muscles would have torn themselves to shreds while running at those speeds. Just to name a few examples.

Originally posted by Kotor3

I am already having this discussion in another thread, but here you are making a pivotal mistake of stating your opinion as fact and asking me to prove mines. First thing not all of the forces users are humans. So not all are being mind rape. Unless you are using the no limits fallacy for Xavier.

So without repeating my argument in another thread. Lets say Xavier is able to win the battle with the human force users. Yoda and fisto are going to sense this. This would leave Yoda and Fisto who would sense this and attack Xavier and render him unconscious releasing the other Jedi.

Well, that is why I specifically only mention human force users in my posts. I have no friggin' clue if his powers would work on an alien mind, and am not just going to assume they do. Problem for Fisto and Yoda is 6 other mutants to deal with, including 2 other telepaths. One who has a super strong diamond form and another who also has a decent level of tk. So even if they sense what is happening to the human force users, there is no guarantee that they could do anything about it, probably having their hands full with all the other mutants.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
As I recall, Frost and Grey are the only enemy telepaths Xavier ever encounters. The rest, for all we know, were Muggles or had no telepathic prowess to speak of. The Jedi, while not as capable as Xavier, are indeed telepathic. Why should we assume that his powers would work in a combat scenario effectively against rival telepaths?

Because no one other than Jean (who was in fact a stronger telepath) has shown to be able to resist him through sheer mental power. Emma had to resort to her diamond form to do so. Even if he can't outright mind rape them, I still believe he can run enough mental interference with the human force users to throw them off their game. And remember, he isn't the only telepath on the mutant team. Jean and Emma are both there too.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

To be fair, as I pointed out to dadudemon, Cerebro!Xavier failed to actually kill any of his victims, even ones like Mystique who were just outside the door. That's plenty of time for Jedi and Sith to snap necks. (Not that it matters because of Quicksilver.)

They might not have died, but they were all in agony and most were barely functional. Hardly in neck snapping condition. And again, that's ignoring the 2 other telepaths and 4 other mutants on the X-men roster.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

I agree that we should be able to use deduction and inference without resigning ourselves totally to screen feats. (Otherwise one could say "Sidious never used Force lightning on Magneto in the films so prove he could!!1!oneone!!!"😉

Difference here is he has actually shown the ability to use force lightning on other individuals onscreen. Against Luke, Vader, Mace and Yoda. So there is enough evidence to support the claim that he can use his lightning on any of the mutants. He has not, however, shown any kind of feat that suggests he can force choke 7 individuals at once.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Quicksilver still solos, though.

This we both agree on.

Fact is, in any match, whether one on one or group, when one player on the field has that much of a speed advantage over literally everyone else taking part, 99% of the time it's going to be a stomp for him/her or his/her team.

EDIT: I actually just had the most ridiculous mental image of Quicksilver doing to Vader what he did to that one security guard... and stealing his helmet. And then running around with a black helmet on his head. I doubt he'd even consider it, but damn it would be funny if it happened. 😆

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Thing is, Quicksilver himself has to have durability well beyond any human to be able to move at the speeds he does and not be injured. An example is when he held Magneto's neck to prevent whiplash, when he took him through that corridor. Speeds he handles just fine. Or even the simple cheek poking feat. If he had normal human durability, his finger would have snapped when he poked that guard. Or his leg muscles would have torn themselves to shreds while running at those speeds. Just to name a few examples.

I could also same the same for the Flash. Neither characters I would attribute to having the strength to punch a solid object like a wall or steel moving at those speeds without seriously damaging themselves.

There are other ways he could use his speed on Vader, but if he contacts Vader armor in anyway, especially in the wrong way at those speeds it could be over for him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, that is why I specifically only mention human force users in my posts. I have no friggin' clue if his powers would work on an alien mind, and am not just going to assume they do. Problem for Fisto and Yoda is 6 other mutants to deal with, including 2 other telepaths. One who has a super strong diamond form and another who also has a decent level of tk. So even if they sense what is happening to the human force users, there is no guarantee that they could do anything about it, probably having their hands full with all the other mutants.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Because no one other than Jean (who was in fact a stronger telepath) has shown to be able to resist him through sheer mental power. Emma had to resort to her diamond form to do so. Even if he can't outright mind rape them, I still believe he can run enough mental interference with the human force users to throw them off their game. And remember, he isn't the only telepath on the mutant team. Jean and Emma are both there too.

So, it is definitely an assumption (since you have various levels of power in the force), that Xavier will just be able to mind dominate telepaths who have never shown the ability to have their minds dominated. [/B][/QUOTE]

Vader gets booted in the chest at a few thousand mph. The asthmatic is the one that comes out much worse in this I guarantee it.

The thing is, QS is moving at normal speeds(to him) so him pressing against Vader's armor wouldn't hurt anymore than you pushing against a wall with all your strength. however considering a simple poke was enough to send a man flying..just think what a full strength push would do to Vader.

It would severely damage if not obliterate the piece of armor he hit. And Vader would more than likely be a red pulpy substance left inside the armor.

TheVaultDweller
He has not, however, shown any kind of feat that suggests he can force choke 7 individuals at once.

His effortless telekinetic manipulation of multi-ton Senate platforms suggests otherwise. Unless you mean to suggest that humanoid trachea and vertebrae would be heavier or more difficult to manipulate... 😬

Originally posted by Kotor3

Yes, I would agree that Quick would have to have a level of durability but not to the degree you are trying to give it. Holding Magneto’s neck is understandable since Magneto never moved at that level and wouldn’t know how to position himself which would be natural for Quicksilver. Now I don’t know how Quicksilver clothes stays on.

I could also same the same for the Flash. Neither characters I would attribute to having the strength to punch a solid object like a wall or steel moving at those speeds without seriously damaging themselves.

There are other ways he could use his speed on Vader, but if he contacts Vader armor in anyway, especially in the wrong way at those speeds it could be over for him.

Thing is, his durability really does have to be on that level. Take an experiment with a finger thing for example. If you tried to poke someone as hard as you possibly could with your finger, chances are you would fracture, break, dislocate, or at least sprain it. And it will not send them flying several meters away. Probably won't even budge most people. So to literally poke someone with that amount of force to send them flying, and not shatter your finger into a useless flap of skin, you would need insane physical durability.

Originally posted by Kotor3

Like Xavier the other two telepaths powers would be irrelevant to the alien force users. The Jedi have shown (movie feats) the ability to fight multiple opponents at once. I see no problem for Yoda or Fisto to be able to get a TK attack on Xavier while fighting the other opponents especially since they do not need to be near him to get off the attack. This would release the other force users.

I think you misunderstood my point. I didn't mean that the telepaths would go after Yoda and Fisto. I meant they could aid Xavier mentally with the others. So then Yoda and Fisto would need to target all 3 of them to be sure to break any kind of mental influence the mutants would have. And that is also ignoring Magneto, who has shown more than enough onscreen feats of power and control that he could simply rip their sabers out of their grips while not even being close to them, reform the metal parts of the handles into spikes and fling them back at the force users. This I base off the fact that he pretty much rewired several sentinels at once while not even seeing what he was doing, and later taking control of them, as well as using their weaponry, while simultaneously levitating himself and a whole friggin' stadium, while he was still some distance away.

Originally posted by Kotor3

At the same time since you use movie feats, base off of movie feats no Jedi or Sith (that I am aware of) have ever had their mind dominated by another telepath/force user. The only time we see an ability for another telepath/force user to be able to see the inner thoughts and feelings of another force user is when there is a force bond between them.
i.e. Luke and Vader – Force Bond
Obi-Wan, Yoda, nor Sidious was able to sense what those two were able to from each other.

So, it is definitely an assumption (since you have various levels of power in the force), that Xavier will just be able to mind dominate telepaths who have never shown the ability to have their minds dominated.

Have we ever actually seen any force user properly try to influence another one in that manner? (Legit question, because I can't recall any instances). As far as I can remember, we see Jedi mind tricks applied on random mooks, but that's it. All we really have to go on is direct comparisons of feats of offensive use of telepathic power. And as things stand, Xavier easily trumps any of them. So yes, we have to assume here. But the evidence points, based on power displayed, that Xavier has the telepathic capabilities to mentally **** with the human force users, if not the alien ones. And like I said, he can potentially have both Jean and Emma backing him, boosting the telepathic assault.

Originally posted by Silent Master
The thing is, QS is moving at normal speeds(to him) so him pressing against Vader's armor wouldn't hurt anymore than you pushing against a wall with all your strength. however considering a simple poke was enough to send a man flying..just think what a full strength push would do to Vader.

Well, that is really just his perception of speed and time. The laws of physics still operate the same way. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So if he pokes someone, that same force is still being exerted back towards his finger. So to do the things he does and not severely injure (or kill) himself, Quicksilver has to have durability well above any normal human.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
His effortless telekinetic manipulation of multi-ton Senate platforms suggests otherwise. Unless you mean to suggest that humanoid trachea and vertebrae would be heavier or more difficult to manipulate... 😬

It's not a question of raw power. It's a question of having shown the level of fine control to apply pressure to 7 different individuals at once for a sustained period of time. And neither he, nor any other force user, has done that in the films. Most people force choked at once were 2. Which falls somewhat short of the number in question.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
It's not a question of raw power. It's a question of having shown the level of fine control to apply pressure to 7 different individuals at once for a sustained period of time. And neither he, nor any other force user, has done that in the films. Most people force choked at once were 2. Which falls somewhat short of the number in question.

😐

Fine control? Dude can lift and juggle multi-ton Senate platforms with ease but throttling 7 people is out of the question? You can't be serious. That notion is easily as egregious as any of Kotor3's lapses. Don't be petty; it's only going to motivate the opposition to be just as silly and then the entire debate grinds to halt and flame wars ensue.

Then I choke you like Sidious would bro uhuh

I doubt the pods were multi-ton. Heavy sure, but not multi-ton.

Originally posted by KingD19
I doubt the pods were multi-ton. Heavy sure, but not multi-ton.

Just by sheer size and constitution, I'd say it's a pretty easy guess that they weigh multiple tons. Hell, a 2001 Buick LeSabre was almost 2 tons and these things look even bigger. You're lowballing pretty grossly, imho.