Force Users vs. X-men (unbiased and clean)

Star Wars universe also has materials that have the same strength yet much lighter composition. Plasteel for example, which is just what it's name suggests. A plastic like material that is extremely strong. It could be a ton, it could be 500lbs.

A multi-ton object wouldn't do so little damage being chucked around like that. Also with the repulsors on(which it seems to indicate they were since they were powered up and whirring around as if people were using them normally) their full weight wouldn't even come into account.

All of this is moot though, as like I and several others pointed out. Quicksilver will end this fight as soon as someone says GO.

Originally posted by KingD19
I doubt the pods were multi-ton. Heavy sure, but not multi-ton.

Based on my estimates, they are definitely multi-tonne, assuming they are fairly solid metal objects whose materials are composed of materials that have an average density between iron and titanium.

They should be about the mass of the average car: possibly heavier. Nothing indicates they were made out of a super light material as Yoda clearly struggled quite a bit trying to fight back.

Also, I should reiterate that this is the movies. It does not include the cartoons or CGI shows (no X-men shows, no Clone Wars, etc.).

Originally posted by dadudemon
Based on my estimates, they are definitely multi-tonne, assuming they are fairly solid metal objects whose materials are composed of materials that have an average density between iron and titanium.

They should be about the mass of the average car: possibly heavier. Nothing indicates they were made out of a super light material as Yoda clearly struggled quite a bit trying to fight back.

Also, I should reiterate that this is the movies. It does not include the cartoons or CGI shows (no X-men shows, no Clone Wars, etc.).

👆

My son here speaks trufax.

Anyway, that sort of egregious lowballing is just going to prompt more of the same from Kotor3. You three should be ashamed of yourselves. uhuh

DDM apparently has estimates, and I know how good he is at math. If he says they're that heavy, I'll retract my statement.

It's not lowballing, it was an observation I made based on what I thought, and what I know of the SW universe.

Such as the widespread use of incredibly strong, yet light materials like plasteel(similar to how if we could replicate spider-silk on a human scale it would be x amount lighter than titanium while just as strong)

There's been a lot of lowballing, but it hasn't been from my side. And if it has it wasn't intentional.

Originally posted by KingD19
DDM apparently has estimates, and I know how good he is at math. If he says they're that heavy, I'll retract my statement.

It's not lowballing, it was an observation I made based on what I thought, and what I know of the SW universe.

Such as the widespread use of incredibly strong, yet light materials like plasteel(similar to how if we could replicate spider-silk on a human scale it would be x amount lighter than titanium while just as strong)

There's been a lot of lowballing, but it hasn't been from my side. And if it has it wasn't intentional.

Thanks, man.

I would agree that the pods would be a futuristic super-light material had Yoda not struggled to TK them. Also, since they are pods for a senate that has existed for thousands of years, they probably didn't design them for industrial or combat purposes (such as using plasteel to save mass). They kind of resemble plastic and polished tungsten (tungsten's density is over 15 g/cm^3) but, I don't like to "high-ball" figures because it makes you look biased. Something between iron and titanium seems reasonable as it puts the pods around a mass that we would expect Yoda to struggle with consider his other feats with the large pillar (in AotC) and the X-Wing in ESB.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Thing is, his durability really does have to be on that level. Take an experiment with a finger thing for example. If you tried to poke someone as hard as you possibly could with your finger, chances are you would fracture, break, dislocate, or at least sprain it. And it will not send them flying several meters away. Probably won't even budge most people. So to literally poke someone with that amount of force to send them flying, and not shatter your finger into a useless flap of skin, you would need insane physical durability.

Also I felt it to be a sign of control of his powers more than brute force or durability. Either way I am playing Devil’s Advocate here in arguing ways in which the force users can overcome Quicksilver. I will get back to you on this one.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I think you misunderstood my point. I didn't mean that the telepaths would go after Yoda and Fisto. I meant they could aid Xavier mentally with the others. So then Yoda and Fisto would need to target all 3 of them to be sure to break any kind of mental influence the mutants would have. And that is also ignoring Magneto, who has shown more than enough onscreen feats of power and control that he could simply rip their sabers out of their grips while not even being close to them, reform the metal parts of the handles into spikes and fling them back at the force users. This I base off the fact that he pretty much rewired several sentinels at once while not even seeing what he was doing, and later taking control of them, as well as using their weaponry, while simultaneously levitating himself and a whole friggin' stadium, while he was still some distance away.

The big break in this whole match for the X-Men is Quicksiliver.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Have we ever actually seen any force user properly try to influence another one in that manner? (Legit question, because I can't recall any instances). As far as I can remember, we see Jedi mind tricks applied on random mooks, but that's it. All we really have to go on is direct comparisons of feats of offensive use of telepathic power. And as things stand, Xavier easily trumps any of them. So yes, we have to assume here. But the evidence points, based on power displayed, that Xavier has the telepathic capabilities to mentally **** with the human force users, if not the alien ones. And like I said, he can potentially have both Jean and Emma backing him, boosting the telepathic assault.

They lack the speed required to overcome QS.

It's admirable trying to fight for the clear under dog. But there is literally no way they can beat him.

Originally posted by The_Tempest

Fine control? Dude can lift and juggle multi-ton Senate platforms with ease but throttling 7 people is out of the question? You can't be serious. That notion is easily as egregious as any of Kotor3's lapses. Don't be petty; it's only going to motivate the opposition to be just as silly and then the entire debate grinds to halt and flame wars ensue.

Well, to me it having brute power doesn't equate to having extremely fine control. Like Hellion in the comics, when his powers stabilized after Emma released his mental blocks. He could telekinetically obliterate things and lift multi ton objects without any effort, but literally couldn't lift a single paperclip, because of lack of fine control. To me personally, no force user has showed the kind of finesse to choke 7 actively resisting people at once. Especially not without line of sight, which some people seemed to be implying. But I guess our opinions will just differ on the matter. Fact is there is more evidence, based on actual onscreen feats, to suggest that Magneto could sodomize them with their own sabers before they even got within proper striking distance of the x-men, than there is of Sidious force choking all 7 of them at once.

Originally posted by Kotor3
Maybe I have to review the scene again. I took the effects of his speed and wind to be the causing factor of people flying. I will review that and get back to you.

Also I felt it to be a sign of control of his powers more than brute force or durability. Either way I am playing Devil’s Advocate here in arguing ways in which the force users can overcome Quicksilver. I will get back to you on this one.

Well, like I said to Silent Master, the laws of physics would remain constant. So unless Quicksilver is a reality warper, nothing other than enhanced durability is going to prevent his body from being destroyed while performing his speed feats.

And even if this wasn't the case, by your own logic, he could apply whatever control technique he generally uses not to get hurt when he attacks Vader.

Originally posted by Kotor3

This is of course based upon the assumption that Jean and Emma would be able to conquer the telepathic powers of the force users. Ok. So going off that scenario, you are right then Yoda and Fisto would have three. I still do not see that being a problem neither to I see Magneto throwing things at them as a problem for them to dodge or counter using their TK.

Well, that is why I said they aid Xavier. I don't know if either of them have the juice to take on any force user one-on-one mentally. They don't have the actual screen feats to prove this (well, Phoenix Jean does, but she isn't in this fight). But adding their mental powers to boost Xavier's even further, that I do see as possible. As for Magneto, the saber thing would also remove the force users' main offensive weapon. In nearly all the fights, sabers are the first resort when combat starts. By taking their sabers away they lose a massive chunk of their offensive arsenal. And going by screen feats, if it turns into a mental tug-o-war of projectile throwing, Magneto has displayed WAY more power than any of the force users in question. In a direct application of power against power, I don't see any of the force users resisting him for any extended period of time.

Also, the scene in Days of Future Past with Mystique and the bullet shows that it's nearly impossible for even someone with superhuman agility to avoid projectiles sent at them by Magneto. It's really a more impressive feat than it appears, if you consider how fast a bullet actually moves and that his mind was able to keep up with and manipulate it on its trajectory.

Originally posted by Kotor3

The examples that I recall are not direct telepathic battles or confrontations. Sidious in ROTJ ask if Vader feelings were correct since he was not able to sense Luke and Vader was. Sidious could not sense Vader feelings or thoughts like Luke did during the final battle. Sidious is the more power force user but was not able to sense their thoughts. Neither could he sense Vader was going to betray him. So I am basing this particularly on that movie feat. Either way I agree that X-Men have the superior telepathic feats.

That's the issue I have. There is lack of proof that force users can be TPd because there is no examples of them actually needing to resist. And we can't really assume they cannot simply due to lack of evidence. Where as there is enough onscreen proof of Xavier mentally screwing with both telepathic and non telepathic opponents (humans and mutants alike) to suggest that he could influence the force users. I am trying to create an argument based on evidence as opposed to lack of evidence. Not that it matters. Quicksilver will still solo.

Originally posted by Robtard
Your argument is silly, man. Xavier's mind-powers > Force-users going by screen feats.

Jedi aren't mutants. They just happen to have more midichlorians than other people. Xavier has the ability to affect/kill every mutant and human on the planet with Cerebro extending his range. There's no reason to believe be couldn't affect masses of mutants (barring other very powerful telepaths that are on his level or greater) as he did the mall full of people. eg He had no problem mind-dominating Toad and Sabretooth, while Magneto was only safe in that scene due to the helmet in X1.

A possible argument could be made that Xavier's powers won't work on the non human Jedi. But that's all a guess.

But if you want to be silly, Xavier need only turn Sidious, Mace and Anakin against the others, then the X-Men can clean up any leftovers.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, like I said to Silent Master, the laws of physics would remain constant. So unless Quicksilver is a reality warper, nothing other than enhanced durability is going to prevent his body from being destroyed while performing his speed feats.

And even if this wasn't the case, by your own logic, he could apply whatever control technique he generally uses not to get hurt when he attacks Vader.

Well, that is why I said they aid Xavier. I don't know if either of them have the juice to take on any force user one-on-one mentally. They don't have the actual screen feats to prove this (well, Phoenix Jean does, but she isn't in this fight). But adding their mental powers to boost Xavier's even further, that I do see as possible. As for Magneto, the saber thing would also remove the force users' main offensive weapon. In nearly all the fights, sabers are the first resort when combat starts. By taking their sabers away they lose a massive chunk of their offensive arsenal. And going by screen feats, if it turns into a mental tug-o-war of projectile throwing, Magneto has displayed WAY more power than any of the force users in question. In a direct application of power against power, I don't see any of the force users resisting him for any extended period of time.

Also, the scene in Days of Future Past with Mystique and the bullet shows that it's nearly impossible for even someone with superhuman agility to avoid projectiles sent at them by Magneto. It's really a more impressive feat than it appears, if you consider how fast a bullet actually moves and that his mind was able to keep up with and manipulate it on its trajectory.

That's the issue I have. There is lack of proof that force users can be TPd because there is no examples of them actually needing to resist. And we can't really assume they cannot simply due to lack of evidence. Where as there is enough onscreen proof of Xavier mentally screwing with both telepathic and non telepathic opponents (humans and mutants alike) to suggest that he could influence the force users. I am trying to create an argument based on evidence as opposed to lack of evidence. Not that it matters. Quicksilver will still solo.

X-men should win

Originally posted by RJ 2.0
Lol, tell me, when has Xavier froze a large group of individuals who were not good old fashioned humans?

He has frozen groups of mutants before

Originally posted by Kotor3
Ok. We are not really going to agree on everything. One thing I will agree with is that Quicksilver is the win point for the X-Men unless the force users can sense him. With Xavier attacking them that would most likely be enough of a distraction for the X-Men to win.

Cool man. Was nice having a debate with you though. Genuinely. I never mind discussing these kinds of topics with people who can do it with civility. As to agreeing on everything... life would be woefully boring if everyone thought the same. Just imagine how dull this forum would be. 😆 😆 😆

Quicksilver is the ace-in-the-hole though. Like I said previously, speedsters of his calibre will always sway fights in their or their team's favour, when there is no one else on the field of comparable speed.

I actually think that most Star Wars threads here should allow for Clone Wars series feats to be included. It gives us way more material to go on with regards to what the force users are potentially capable of. Because I do want to make it clear that I am actually a Star Wars fan, even if I often argue against the characters. 😆 😆 😆

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Cool man. Was nice having a debate with you though. Genuinely. I never mind discussing these kinds of topics with people who can do it with civility. As to agreeing on everything... life would be woefully boring if everyone thought the same. Just imagine how dull this forum would be. 😆 😆 😆

Quicksilver is the ace-in-the-hole though. Like I said previously, speedsters of his calibre will always sway fights in their or their team's favour, when there is no one else on the field of comparable speed.

I actually think that most Star Wars threads here should allow for Clone Wars series feats to be included. It gives us way more material to go on with regards to what the force users are potentially capable of. Because I do want to make it clear that I am actually a Star Wars fan, even if I often argue against the characters. 😆 😆 😆

Same here. I enjoyed the discussion. You have officially made it on my very limited list of people on this forum not to troll with but have a legitimate discussion.

Originally posted by Firefly218
He has frozen groups of mutants before