Lucy vs Dr. Manhattan

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
Lucy has a vast array more of abilities than Manhattan. She could simply alter his atomic structure, because she can manipulate atomic structure as far as 80%, and stop him from existing at all. Period.

Or she could simply stop time, read his past, go back in time and in all universes that he's in, kill him before he was created.

Manhattan cannot do any of those things(save for atomic separation on the level of around 80% Lucy), and only has a non-linear perception of time. Lucy can literally control time, as well as most of Manhattan's abilities. She can also transcend universal limits, and becomes multiversal at 100%.

Nope none of that will work on Manhattan, to destroy him you would have to destroy the universal quantum field. She was never shown with power to do that she was a reality warper with a human body.

Everyone here is using no limits fallacy on Lucy, she never faced anyone tougher then a street thug.

True, but Lucy at 100% becomes the quantum field, and is comparable in theory to the Pheonix, something vastly above Manhattan.

The OP has to clarify what stage Lucy is at. At 100%, Lucy wins or stalemate. Anything lower than that and Doc will disintegrate her physical body and kill her effortlessly.

Manhattan

Bump

Originally posted by NemeBro
Stop being a whiny little *****.

He was explicitly incapable of stopping Russia's nuclear arsenal. If he could destroy all other alternate timelines and choose one that would be an exceedingly trivial matter for him. Hell, stopping WW3 would be a trivial matter for him.

He was only capable of viewing his own timeline in the original comic, he was not virtually omniscient.

In the original comic, he didn't "choose" which timelines were set, he was in fact powerless. Aware that choice is an illusion because everything is set in stone. Arguably this isn't the case by the end of the comic and he stops being so deterministic, but the ability to outright pick and choose timelines outright contradicts his original characterization.

Showing off what he could do? Bullshit. Before Watchmen isn't written by Alan Moore. In fact Moore hates Before Watchmen. It's a cash cow written by writers of varying talent and, in the case of the Manhattan one, didn't get the points of the original character or did and decided that wasn't "cool" enough so made him an overpowered flanderization of his original self.

The outcome I'm arguing in a pointless thread? Which is what? I don't give a dick who wins between Lucy and Manhattan.

In addition to that, his reality-splintering ability wasn't really him physically molding separate universes Franklin Richards-style, but it was him accidentally messing around with quantum mechanics on a grand scale. It was a result of him attempting to look further into his past, beyond the origin-point where he got transformed into a superhuman entity, and once he achieved that, the universe got splintered. Manhattan himself was a powerless, invisible, intangible being in all these alternate scenarios.

Suffice to say, Arachnid1 misinterpreted the comics.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Bump

Actually, his inability to affect future outcomes was explained in Before Watchmen; he chose not to alter it because his choices always resulted in a future where the Earth got ravaged by nuclear war. Which again is in line with the premise of the original comic, that established his limitations in retrospect to a MAD nuclear exchange between the USA and the USSR.

In addition to that, his reality-splintering ability wasn't really him physically molding separate universes Franklin Richards-style, but it was him accidentally messing around with quantum mechanics on a grand scale. It was a result of him attempting to look further into his past, beyond the origin-point where he got transformed into a superhuman entity, and once he achieved that, the universe got splintered. Manhattan himself was a powerless, invisible, intangible being in all these alternate scenarios.

Suffice to say, Arachnid1 misinterpreted the comics.

As for the rest of that, I explained how that all worked here:

Originally posted by Arachnid1
His 'before' comic doesn't leave the idea of everything being static behind. It expands on it, and explains why he came to understand how that all works in the first place. Its a kind of 'what if?' comic that shows what happens when he tries to change what he knows has to happen. It's not that he cant stop the nuclear arsenal (do you really think he cant just turn a nuke into a teddy bear?). He just chooses not to, like when he chose not to stop The Comedian from gunning down the pregnant girl in Vietnam. Changing something doesn't change the outcome in that static universe, it creates another static universe. That means two different universes; One where everything stayed the same because he chose to let it, and one where everything changed. His choices ended up splintering reality and causing realities that were pretty bad off themselves, so he chose to erase those realities and stick with his original.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Bump

Actually, his inability to affect future outcomes was explained in Before Watchmen; he chose not to alter it because his choices always resulted in a future where the Earth got ravaged by nuclear war. Which again is in line with the premise of the original comic, that established his limitations in retrospect to a MAD nuclear exchange between the USA and the USSR.

In addition to that, his reality-splintering ability wasn't really him physically molding separate universes Franklin Richards-style, but it was him accidentally messing around with quantum mechanics on a grand scale. It was a result of him attempting to look further into his past, beyond the origin-point where he got transformed into a superhuman entity, and once he achieved that, the universe got splintered. Manhattan himself was a powerless, invisible, intangible being in all these alternate scenarios.

Suffice to say, Arachnid1 misinterpreted the comics.

If he was as powerless as you claim how on earth did he fix it all? He was not powerless and was reality warping on a grand scale.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
If he was as powerless as you claim how on earth did he fix it all? He was not powerless and was reality warping on a grand scale.

But not before making himself known to his past self, so not invisible either. He can choose to effect other realities just fine. He's not intangible and invisible if he doesn't want to be. Thats just how he chose to view and play with those timelines throughout the comic. He definitely wasn't powerless.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I just checked again. He wasn't powerless. From what I could tell, he was still able to influence the choices made in those other realities causing them to splinter too. After that, he deleted all those realities because they were screwed too.

As for the rest of that, I explained how that all worked here:

Everything I've said so far is something he actually did in the before comic, so I'm not sure what I misinterpreted.

By altering his choices. A very cheap exploit of quantum physics on a massive scale. Which isn't really hard to achieve in the comic book medium by ordinary people, nevermind someone of Manhattan's powerset. Chief example being what Scott Summers pulled off in Endsong upon Phoenix-Jean's prompting, when he decided to hook up with Emma Frost, thereby undoing the "bad" future timeline.

This is how he undid all the damage:

By essentially giving up free will altogether.😂

As I have mentioned before, such a feat is hardly beyond the capability of comic book Surfer. Not to mention that even if we are to take Manhattan's hyperbole-laden commentary at face value, the power required to achieve such a feat isn't beyond the raw energy reserves of Mjolnir either.

@Supra: He was unable to stop all-out nuclear war in all the variant timelines. As NemeBro put it before:

Hence he was powerless.

On a sidenote; photobucket has evolved into the absolute worst image sharing site I know of today.👇

Originally posted by Epicurus
This is how he "splintered" reality:

By altering his choices. A very cheap exploit of quantum physics on a massive scale. Which isn't really hard to achieve in the comic book medium by ordinary people, nevermind someone of Manhattan's powerset. Chief example being what Scott Summers pulled off in Endsong upon Phoenix-Jean's prompting, when he decided to hook up with Emma Frost, thereby undoing the "bad" future timeline.

This is how he undid all the damage:

By essentially giving up free will altogether.😂

As I have mentioned before, such a feat is hardly beyond the capability of comic book Surfer. Not to mention that even if we are to take Manhattan's hyperbole-laden commentary at face value, the power required to achieve such a feat isn't beyond the raw energy reserves of Mjolnir either.

@Supra: He was unable to stop all-out nuclear war in all the variant timelines. As NemeBro put it before:

Hence he was powerless.

On a sidenote; photobucket has evolved into the absolute worst image sharing site I know of today.👇

Thats why I don't see him having trouble with nukes. He should be able to turn the uranium (or plutonium, or any other element) in any nuke into sand. I'm assuming the main thing that stops him from doing just that is the loss of the ability to see past the nukes essentially blocking him from knowing exactly where the nukes hit and acting accordingly. I wouldn't call that powerless. He has the power to do something about it. He just had the same limit he had in the original comic where he couldn't see the future any more until after a certain massive event occurred. That blocks him from knowing where the nukes hit.

And even then, why cant he just go to the moon and watch from space before the nukes hit? If he has the ability to process small events on an atomic scale that pass so fast most would say they didn't even happen, spotting some nukes from orbit or something like that should be childs play for him, right? That seems like PIS more than anything TBH

Unless you mean him being powerless in a more figurative sense in which case, sure. He didn't stop nuclear war from happening ultimately. He did stop the cuban missile crisis from occurring with a choice though. I'm assuming the problem was that there was always more people with nukes to start a war, so it happened in different timelines for different reasons. It didn't matter if he stopped one, because it would happen for another reason. Which yes, is why he decided to stop messing with reality altogether and just let whatever happens in his original reality happen.

God, that comic was f*cking awesome. I loved understanding Manhattans original reasoning to not save the pregnant Vietnamese. Having the background on why he acted the way he acted at different points in the original is kind of cool.

And your images are fine. I actually prefer them like that, because I can just click on them to enlarge as opposed to having them just blow up the page. It's an improvement. 👆

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I realize how all that worked too. It's something I explained earlier in the thread. The nature of the choices were varied though too. One of the choices was in that scene were his father opened the box he was hiding in after it for riddled with bullets (his childhood). In one reality, he made himself live. In the other, he was found dead and full of holes. Another choice was the one he made to bring his father back to life in later age. All his choices weren't simple left and right choices. They were him reality bending to change the outcome. Yes, the choices aren't him molding the entire universe to whatever image he would want (I never claimed it was), but its still far above Thor, SS, or Scott Summers. That was him existing as one consciousness at all points in the timeline and altering whatever he saw fit to alter. Creating (not from scratch of course) multiple different realities and deleting them simultaneously while playing with life, death and reality. Even the realities where he tried to make himself cease to exist or die didn't kill or slow him down. All of this happened probably in an instant for him, since he exists and functions at all points in time at the same time. That just seems far above Thor, Surfer, or Summers by good amount.

Originally posted by Arachnid1

Thats why I don't see him having trouble with nukes.

Originally posted by Arachnid1

And even then, why cant he just go to the moon and watch from space before the nukes hit? If he has the ability to process small events on an atomic scale that pass so fast most would say they didn't even happen, spotting some nukes from orbit or something like that should be childs play for him, right? That seems like PIS more than anything TBH

Heck, now that I brought up Nate, I'll also mention how Surfer completely dominated and overpowered God-Cable, who eventually turned out to be a non-corporeal being composed of pure psi energy.

Originally posted by Arachnid1

Unless you mean him being powerless in a more figurative sense in which case, sure. He didn't stop nuclear war from happening ultimately. He did stop the cuban missile crisis from occurring with a choice though. I'm assuming the problem was that there was always more people with nukes to start a war, so it happened in different timelines for different reasons. It didn't matter if he stopped one, because it would happen for another reason. Which yes, is why he decided to stop messing with reality altogether and just let whatever happens in his original reality happen.

Originally posted by Arachnid1

God, that comic was f*cking awesome. I loved understanding Manhattans original reasoning to not save the pregnant Vietnamese. Having the background on why he acted the way he acted at different points in the original is kind of cool.

And your images are fine. I actually prefer them like that, because I can just click on them to enlarge as opposed to having them just blow up the page. It's an improvement. 👆

3 of those images aren't photobucket-based at all though. I used turboimagehost when the photobucket thumbs and links repeatedly failed to work.

Photobucket was an absolute horror to work with yesterday.

i was disappointed with "Lucy".

Based on the hype i was expecting some trans level shit. She did a lot of thing differently than what Manhattan was shown capable of doing, but i didn't see her do anything that puts her above him.