He used Shii-Cho because it allows him to submerge himself more deeply into the Force than any other style.
Kit Fisto: "I should have gone closer to the edge. Released myself into the Force, become more unpredictable. More random."
Obi-Wan Kenobi: "That would have been dangerous. Not to your body, perhaps, but to your spirit."
Kit Fisto: "It is the way of Form I."
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Look at the underlined parts and tell me, is Makashi the Ultimate Lightsaber to Lightsaber combat form or not?If it's not as good as Juyo or Djem So, then it's NOT the ultimate fencing form.
So is it or isn't it?
No, because Djem-so and Juyo is not superior to other forms as Makashi is. Djem-so is using physical and juyo is using kinetic attacks sometimes, these are problem for makashi, except these, makashi is superior to shii-cho, soresu, ataru, niman etc.
If djem-so can't produce enough physical strength, or if juyo can't produce enough kinetic strentgh, then makashi is superior to these forms as well.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERWell apart from the fact that Dooku fought Anakin with help from Kenobi, and apart from the fact that Anakin has shown he can simply Tank Dooku's TK Attacks far far better than Obi-Wan and apart from the fact that Kenobi and Anakin know each others moves and style very well.... Apart from all that, Soresu is just better at defending. That doesn't make Makashi weak at defending. It's actually also very good at that.
Now your welcome to explain that if Dooku loses to Anakin simply because he uses Djem So, then why wasn't Anakin beating Dooku every time they fought in TCW? In fact the very last time they fought in TCW (which wouldn't have been far off from ROTS) Dooku was outclassing Obi-Wan and Skywalker together.
He showed his physical advantage in TCW as well ;
Season 4 - episode 18
After that Dooku defeated him via force lightning & force blast. Not with lightsaber combat, and I still think that Dooku was more powerful than Anakin by RotS. For example ; Savage Opress did the same, disarmed Dooku with a powerful kinetic attack, but then he failed to stop his force lightning, same with Anakin, Dooku can overpower RotS Anakin via force powers.
And not to mention, Anakin overpowered by Dooku's TK & force lightning attacks before ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqeEjv1_eOc
Dooku choked him right after Anakin created a force wave.
Originally posted by Marco1907
No, because Djem-so and Juyo is not superior to other forms as Makashi is. Djem-so is using physical and juyo is using kinetic attacks sometimes, these are problem for makashi, except these, makashi is superior to shii-cho, soresu, ataru, niman etc.
If djem-so can't produce enough physical strength, or if juyo can't produce enough kinetic strentgh, then makashi is superior to these forms as well.
But Djem So and Juyo do produce a lot kinetic energy. As does Ataru.
So going by your interpretation, Makashi is not even close to being the "Ultimate" fencing form.
Originally posted by Marco1907
He showed his physical advantage in TCW as well ;
So because he landed a kick which tripped Dooku over the stairs behind him, that gives Anakin a physical advantage? Even though the kick wasn't anywhere near as deadly or effective as the one Dooku landed on Anakin in ROTS?
Or what about all the deadly kicks Dooku's landed on Ventress and Kenobi, flooring them? Is Dooku their physical superior now? And where is Obi-Wan and Ventress's clear physical inferiority when they fight Skywalker?
I actually don't have a problem calling Anakin "stronger" than Dooku. I do have a problem with making it into a weakness for Dooku.
And btw, these "kicks" have absolutely nothing to do with Djem So and Makashi, so you're yet to prove Makashi is "weak" to Djem So and therefore loses by default.
Originally posted by Marco1907
After that Dooku defeated him via force lightning & force blast. Not with lightsaber combat, and I still think that Dooku was more powerful than Anakin by RotS.
Oh yeah, I completely agree Anakin's always been a threat to Dooku in "Sabers", but Dooku's always been the overall superior combatant thanks to his far superior force mastery.
But none of that makes Dooku "weak" to physical attacks or kinetic energy.
Originally posted by Marco1907
For example ; Savage Opress did the same, disarmed Dooku with a powerful kinetic attack, but then he failed to stop his force lightning, same with Anakin, Dooku can overpower RotS Anakin via force powers.
You're treating the Savage Opress thing as though it was a completely fair one on one situation.
Dooku was dancing around 2 of them in a cramped space after being surprise ambushed by both of them.
You're also assuming Dooku "had to" resort to Force Powers to deal with Opress.
In a one on one Dooku even after being disarmed (by hitting the wall behind him fighting 2 opponents in a cramped space) could have dodged Opress's attacks until he got his Saber back.
Originally posted by Marco1907
nd not to mention, Anakin overpowered by Dooku's TK & force lightning attacks before ;Dooku choked him right after Anakin created a force wave.
None of this is relevant to physical attacks. I've always admitted Skywalker provides a challenge to Dooku. But he's still inferior overall, Djem So be damned 😛
Many of you are attributing Dooku's loss, and past poor performances against Anakin in the physical department due to his use of Makashi. This is entirely incorrect as Makashi has nothing to do with this correlation, and it is far more likely due to Anakins VAST force reserves in tandem with his physical youth. This disparity in strength is further amplified by the fact that Dooku is past his physical prime, and has to use his LIMITED force reserves to temporarily match Anakin in a sustained physical brawl.
Do any of you honestly believe that if Dooku was using Djem So, or Juyo he would have fared any better against Anakin? I think not.
The fact of the matter is that Dooku utilizes Makashi because it is so compatible with his power set, and helps make up for his lack of infinite force reserves as well as his physical youth. Makashi allows him to utilize his finite force reserves in a far more efficient manner, this is why he uses it.
If Anakin were to utilize Makashi he would by no means be at a disadvantage versus physically strong opponents, this is because he possess infinite force reserves and vast physical strength.
Bottom line kinetic energy is generated by strength and is nullified by equal amount of strength of opponent.
Makashi's weakness against strong attacks can be explained by the fact that Makashi practitioners tend to use only one hand but Dooku has shown to utilize two-handed grip just as good. Regardless, one handed grip offers other advantages like increased maneuverability, which can actually help against strong opponent, so it doesn't matter.
In certain circumstances one style can be better than the other but on even ground no style is superior.
"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.
It was time to alter his own tactics.
He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance..."
Notice that it doesn't say that Makashi is weak against Djem So. Only that it doesn't generate enough kinetic energy to meet Djem So head to head. That is a specific circumstance. Dooku was still able to counter Anakin and expose a weakness of Djem So.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
[b]"Count Dooku's calm and measured moves make him a master of Makashi. However, the form lacks great power and Dooku met his match against the force of Anakin Skywalker's style."
--Star Wars: Mysterious of the Jedi [/B]
Makashi lacks power when directly fighting Djem So head on, as the prior post explained.
Makashi is not weak towards Djem So, or any style that focuses on strong attacks. Like any fighter it adapts to its' circumstances, and outmaneuvers or parries the opponents blows instead of fighting head to head.
In the novel this is explained that Anakin was becoming stronger, and faster every second with no limit to his growth. Dooku on the other hand was exhausted from fighting two opponents, and that his force reserves were nearly empty.
Dooku lost because he lacked the force stamina to out last Anakin, and stamina is one of Makashi's strong points. In conclusion Dooku lost because Anakin had infinite force reserves, which no one else in the mythos possesses. If Dooku were fighting Windu I doubt he would have had the same issues he did with Anakin, this is because Windu does not have an infinite reserve of force energy or a limitless power growth while in combat. Dooku would have focused on exploiting the weakness of a heavy kinetic form, such as the user exhausting their own self at a rapid rate, lack of maneuverability, and lack of speed.
Originally posted by Arhael
"His own elegant Makashi simply did not generate the kinetic power to meet Djem So head-to-head. Especially not while also defending against a second attacker.It was time to alter his own tactics.
He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance...
"Notice that it doesn't say that Makashi is weak against Djem So. Only that it doesn't generate enough kinetic energy to meet Djem So head to head. That is a specific circumstance. Dooku was still able to counter Anakin and expose a weakness of Djem So.
👆
And to follow up on that, he especially had difficulty meeting Djem So "head to head" "while also defending against a second attacker."
That closes this argument.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
[b]"Count Dooku's calm and measured moves make him a master of Makashi. However, the form lacks great power and Dooku met his match against the force of Anakin Skywalker's style."
--Star Wars: Mysterious of the Jedi [/B]
LOL
Yeah because Dooku never came across that style before! LOL
He's faced Anakin's style many times agianst Anakin himself, and in their final fight in TCW he was handling Anakin's style just fine.
So this quote on top of being outright stupid and making no sense at all, is just plain outdated.
Originally posted by Board Walker
Many of you are attributing Dooku's loss, and past poor performances against Anakin in the physical department due to his use of Makashi. This is entirely incorrect as Makashi has nothing to do with this correlation, and it is far more likely due to Anakins VAST force reserves in tandem with his physical youth. This disparity in strength is further amplified by the fact that Dooku is past his physical prime, and has to use his LIMITED force reserves to temporarily match Anakin in a sustained physical brawl.Do any of you honestly believe that if Dooku was using Djem So, or Juyo he would have fared any better against Anakin? I think not.
The fact of the matter is that Dooku utilizes Makashi because it is so compatible with his power set, and helps make up for his lack of infinite force reserves as well as his physical youth. Makashi allows him to utilize his finite force reserves in a far more efficient manner, this is why he uses it.
If Anakin were to utilize Makashi he would by no means be at a disadvantage versus physically strong opponents, this is because he possess infinite force reserves and vast physical strength.
You've got a point there.
Makashi is more like a solution to Dooku's old age (he was even older than Sidious 63 -83), it is very economic and does not exhaust him unlike other lightsaber forms would, but still against opponents that are using physical attributes as a main force, his lack of age and his limited force reserves shows up as a problem.
Originally posted by Board Walker
Makashi lacks power when directly fighting Djem So head on, as the prior post explained.Makashi is not weak towards Djem So, or any style that focuses on strong attacks. Like any fighter it adapts to its' circumstances, and outmaneuvers or parries the opponents blows instead of fighting head to head.
In the novel this is explained that Anakin was becoming stronger, and faster every second with no limit to his growth. Dooku on the other hand was exhausted from fighting two opponents, and that his force reserves were nearly empty.
Dooku lost because he lacked the force stamina to out last Anakin, and stamina is one of Makashi's strong points. In conclusion Dooku lost because Anakin had infinite force reserves, which no one else in the mythos possesses. If Dooku were fighting Windu I doubt he would have had the same issues he did with Anakin, this is because Windu does not have an infinite reserve of force energy or a limitless power growth while in combat. Dooku would have focused on exploiting the weakness of a heavy kinetic form, such as the user exhausting their own self at a rapid rate, lack of maneuverability, and lack of speed.
About Mace, I've to disagree. Mace channeling the dark side energy of his rival, if he channels Dooku's dark side, he can outclass him like he did to Sidious.
And I agree that Anakin has greater physical and better force reserve than Dooku, however no one has it ? You're overrating Anakin here, if you really believe that. Anakin failed to overpower Obi-Wan, or he would never overpower someone like Maul or even Savage Opress.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
-So because he landed a kick which tripped Dooku over the stairs behind him, that gives Anakin a physical advantage? Even though the kick wasn't anywhere near as deadly or effective as the one Dooku landed on Anakin in ROTS?
Or what about all the deadly kicks Dooku's landed on Ventress and Kenobi, flooring them? Is Dooku their physical superior now? And where is Obi-Wan and Ventress's clear physical inferiority when they fight Skywalker?
I actually don't have a problem calling Anakin "stronger" than Dooku. I do have a problem with making it into a weakness for Dooku.
And btw, these "kicks" have absolutely nothing to do with Djem So and Makashi, so you're yet to prove Makashi is "weak" to Djem So and therefore loses by default.
Oh yeah, I completely agree Anakin's always been a threat to Dooku in "Sabers", but Dooku's always been the overall superior combatant thanks to his far superior force mastery.
But none of that makes Dooku "weak" to physical attacks or kinetic energy.
You're treating the Savage Opress thing as though it was a completely fair one on one situation.
Dooku was dancing around 2 of them in a cramped space after being surprise ambushed by both of them.
You're also assuming Dooku "had to" resort to Force Powers to deal with Opress.
In a one on one Dooku even after being disarmed (by hitting the wall behind him fighting 2 opponents in a cramped space) could have dodged Opress's attacks until he got his Saber back.
You are not seeing the gif I showed you because you are too biased.
Anakin is not only kicked Dooku, also catch his neck and he was choking him. And Dooku had to use force powers to free himself, he couldn't save himself even like Obi-Wan did in RotS duel at mustafar.
As for Savage, it is nothing to do with being 2 v 1, Savage didn't throwed him because Ventress was there, Ventress was lying on the ground, when the time Savage attacked Dooku.
If you really going to depend on this excuse, you make no sense at all.
Originally posted by Marco1907
You've got a point there.Makashi is more like a solution to Dooku's old age (he was even older than Sidious 63 -83), it is very economic and does not exhaust him unlike other lightsaber forms would, but still against opponents that are using physical attributes as a main force, his lack of age and his limited force reserves shows up as a problem.
Marco I think your intelligent and knowledgeable on Star Wars, but you really need to let this "weakness" of Dooku's go.
There's simply not enough evidence. The primary examples are when Dooku's facing multiple opponents in a row. In those situations you have to let Dooku off, as he will obviously be expending more of his Force Reserves than he would in a one on one scenario.
You also have to allow for the incredible raw power Anakin has at his disposal, and not put that down to Dooku's "weakness."
Originally posted by Marco1907
About Mace, I've to disagree. Mace channeling the dark side energy of his rival, if he channels Dooku's dark side, he can outclass him like he did to Sidious.
Debatable. Different styles clash in different ways just like Kenobi's, Anakin's and Dooku's styles all clashed with each other in different ways.
Plus if your using the whole "Vapaad channels the Opponent's Dark Side" idea, then Sidious clearly has much more powerful dark side attacks for Mace to deflect than Dooku would, giving Mace the bigger advantage against Sidious.
Originally posted by Marco1907
And I agree that Anakin has greater physical and better force reserve than Dooku, however no one has it ? You're overrating Anakin here, if you really believe that. Anakin failed to overpower Obi-Wan, or he would never overpower someone like Maul or even Savage Opress.
Like I said clash of styles. What better way to engage someone of Anakin's strength, than with a purely defensive form?
Originally posted by Marco1907
You are not seeing the gif I showed you because you are too biased.
I've seen it many many times.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Anakin is not only kicked Dooku, also catch his neck and he was choking him. And Dooku had to use force powers to free himself, he couldn't save himself even like Obi-Wan did in RotS duel at mustafar.
Again you're clinging to this idea that Dooku is weak to physical attacks by pointing out the few times he's been hit.
Mace Windu kicked Sidious to the floor disarming him.
Does that make Sidious weak to physical attacks?
Ventress has kicked and floored Kenobi, knocking him completely helpess for a few seconds. Dooku also hurt Kenobi's ribs and sent him flying with a kick almost sending him off the ledge. Does that make Kenobi weak to physical attacks?
Dooku kicked and floored Ventress several times. Does that make Ventress weak to physical attacks?
At least Dooku in that GIF you showed was still able to hold on to his weapon and fight back with his force powers- I.e. not completely helpless. At least Dooku was able to get back up right away once Anakin was off him. Anakin could do no such thing when Dooku kick floored him in ROTS. Anakin was floored and completely helpless for a good 10 seconds.
Like I've already said Marco, I do think you're smart and knowledgeable on SW, but you're just too obsessed in showing Dooku has this weakness that doesn't exist. The true facts are it's usually Dooku rendering his opponents useless with physical attacks, and the other way around is very very rare. But you're obseesing over those rare moments because of this 1 line in the ROTS novel that you and many others have completely exaggerated and taken completely out of context.
Originally posted by Marco1907
As for Savage, it is nothing to do with being 2 v 1, Savage didn't throwed him because Ventress was there, Ventress was lying on the ground, when the time Savage attacked Dooku.
If you really going to depend on this excuse, you make no sense at all.
You've already said Dooku is old and has less force reserves than someone like Anakin, and yet you don't think continuously dodging Ventress, then Opress, then Ventress, then Opress again will have any effect on Dooku's force reserves?
You think the exact same thing would happen in a pure one on one?
Besides Opress is a physical beast, whose disarmed Kenobi in just a few strokes one time, and that was one on one. Again does that make Kenobi weak against physical attacks?
So like I said, you really need to put things in context and and stop being obsessed with this "weakness" Dooku has. His age might come into effect in an extended fight or against multiple opponents, but not in an ordinary one on one scenario.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
LOL What kind of order is that and exactly what evidence is it based off? When Dooku's the one who injured Kenobi's stomach and sent him flying off the ledge with a kick.And Dooku's the one who kept kick flooring Ventress.
Due to Durability.
How does Dooku is kicking someone indicates his physical strength ? It's indicates his skill and speed, especially he is always kicking via fencing, not martial arts.
Ventress has good force combat feats, against Nightbrothers and Clone troopers, I don't recall any force combat feat (without lightsaber) of Dooku.
Same as Obi-Wan, he resisted Anakin's, Maul's, Savage's blows. Resisted torture etc.
As for Savage, it is nothing to do with being 2 v 1, Savage didn't throwed him because Ventress was there, Ventress was lying on the ground, when the time Savage attacked Dooku.
If you really going to depend on this excuse, you make no sense at all.
Also, lets not forget that Opress disarmed Kenobi and Ventress as well, which makes your assessment even more pointless. They never dealt with such strong opponents, it takes getting used to.
Originally posted by Arhael
If you re-watch the fight, you will see that Dooku did not get disarmed by his attack.Dooku blocked attack but it was so strong that it took him off feat. He dropped lightsaber as result of hitting the wall behind him. This is entirely circumstantial. In other situation Dooku could have had better feet position to remain in place or simply somersault backward.
Lol.
So they have to fight in a place which includes no wall ? Like a cliff ? Alright then, Savage is capable of killing Dooku with one stroke....
Great logic.
Originally posted by ArhaelAlso, lets not forget that Opress disarmed Kenobi and Ventress as well, which makes your assessment even more pointless. They never dealt with such strong opponents, it takes getting used to. [/B]
Savage has advantage over Ventress as well, I never said Savage is inferior to Ventress.
As for Obi-Wan, they caught him by surprise, Obi-Wan was not expecting Savage, he was expecting to fight with Maul alone.
Then in florrum, Obi-Wan sliced Savage's left arm which shows that Obi-Wan is capable of defeating Savage Opress.