Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And no speed tricks will drop him?
Short of somehow dishing out orders of magnitude more damage than the Silver Surfer can, I think not. I mean seriously, Thanos resorted to trickery against this guy (I forgot Thanos Quest when I was listing the stories above).
One thing I could maybe see working is some sort of trick where Wally slows him down and Zoom stretches time around him such that the Runner gets so bored that he gives up and dies.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
True.Which is where we then have the handbooks, as posted by Galan. On its own, sure, the handbooks aren't to be trusted. But we have on panel, canon, proof (unless it was not canon?) where it's explicitly said to be below light speed.
The same story even contradicts itself, saying that they traverse "various points around the Milky Way." Giving it the same weight as his other appearances is like trying to find proof of something in a guest appearance in Howard the Duck's book or saying She-Hulk can escape from a trap by jumping out of the panel onto the next page. It's just not written to the sort of rigorous consistency that you're attempting to apply.
And again, all this go-round over long-distance travel speeds isn't really relevant to his combat performance, other than perhaps in controlling engagement/disengagement. He can out-maneuver the Silver Surfer, which is no small feat, but I think the Flashes outclass him in tactical use of their speed, by far.
True, it's not a race, after all.
I guess the reason why I'm harping on about it, is because it translates (in my mind) to reaction speeds as well.
So if one side is much faster in reaction speeds (which is inferred by travel speeds), AND that side is much more tactically aware, then they will win.
Of course, the next step (which is what I believe you're alluding to) is, what the hell can they do? I could be given all the time in the world, but I'm not knocking an elephant out with my bare hands.
Is that a correct summary?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So if one side is much faster in reaction speeds (which is inferred by travel speeds), AND that side is much more tactically aware, then they will win.Of course, the next step (which is what I believe you're alluding to) is, what the hell can they do? I could be given all the time in the world, but I'm not knocking an elephant out with my bare hands.
Is that a correct summary?
More or less.
In terms of reaction speed in a fight, I see it about like:
Zoom>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Flash>>>>Runner>>>>>>>Silver Surfer
(Highly scientific, I know.)
The nature of Zoom's time-warp based powers gives him a huge reaction advantage over everyone else. However, the flip-side of that is that he doesn't have all the power and versatility that the Speed Force gives the Flash. Like in your elephant example, I don't think that the Silver Surfer would be hurt by his blows, let alone the Runner.
Flash vs Runner in reactions, it's hard to say anything definitive based on the small sample of Runner fights, but I'm inclined say that while the Runner has been shown out-reflexing the Silver Surfer and Thanos, the Flash routinely outclasses most other speedsters in a variety of spectacular and humiliating ways. The Runner doesn't even really fight people all that often, while the Flash has epic superspeed battles on a regular basis. Again, it's hard to say by how much, but I think the Flash has to have a significant advantage here.
What I do wonder about are the nature of the Runners perception, that clearly transcend time and space in some fashion. He can stand on a star and tell that it's going to supernova in a few years time, sense Moondragon's emotions from outside her event horizon, and find the Silver Surfer on the wing. He might be better equipped to handle Zoom's particular brand of trouble than Wally was.
You're right though, in the end I think it comes down to durability. Wally's best hits are pretty darn hard, but if the Runner didn't even feel what SS was doing to him and casually walks around on stars like it's nothing... let's say that if the Flash were to pull off a victory, it'd be through some sort of clever out-of-context maneuver rather than anything in his usual arsenal.
Originally posted by Laminator_X
More or less.In terms of reaction speed in a fight, I see it about like:
Zoom>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Flash>>>>Runner>>>>>>>Silver Surfer
(Highly scientific, I know.)The nature of Zoom's time-warp based powers gives him a huge reaction advantage over everyone else. However, the flip-side of that is that he doesn't have all the power and versatility that the Speed Force gives the Flash. Like in your elephant example, I don't think that the Silver Surfer would be hurt by his blows, let alone the Runner.
Flash vs Runner in reactions, it's hard to say anything definitive based on the small sample of Runner fights, but I'm inclined say that while the Runner has been shown out-reflexing the Silver Surfer and Thanos, the Flash routinely outclasses most other speedsters in a variety of spectacular and humiliating ways. The Runner doesn't even really fight people all that often, while the Flash has epic superspeed battles on a regular basis. Again, it's hard to say by how much, but I think the Flash has to have a significant advantage here.
What I do wonder about are the nature of the Runners perception, that clearly transcend time and space in some fashion. He can stand on a star and tell that it's going to supernova in a few years time, sense Moondragon's emotions from outside her event horizon, and find the Silver Surfer on the wing. He might be better equipped to handle Zoom's particular brand of trouble than Wally was.
You're right though, in the end I think it comes down to durability. Wally's best hits are pretty darn hard, but if the Runner didn't even feel what SS was doing to him and casually walks around on stars like it's nothing... let's say that if the Flash were to pull off a victory, it'd be through some sort of clever out-of-context maneuver rather than anything in his usual arsenal.
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Agreed. And truth be told, I doubt Galan and I would be arguing this hard if CIS hadn't been turned off for the match, which is why we give it to the speedsters. There are a lot of options open to them, after all. Am sure you wouldn't appreciate a scan dump, but am happy to showcase some of the weirder applications of his powers which he has done?
Again, Galan and I have never in seriousness talked about things that he's never done before.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
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Agreed. And truth be told, I doubt Galan and I would be arguing this hard if CIS hadn't been turned off for the match, which is why we give it to the speedsters. There are a lot of options open to them, after all. Am sure you wouldn't appreciate a scan dump, but am happy to showcase some of the weirder applications of his powers which he has done?Again, Galan and I have never in seriousness talked about things that he's never done before.
Wasn't Wally's punches described as a white star exploding? Or something to that? Think about hundreds of those. Thousands.
Originally posted by Golgo13
Wasn't Wally's punches described as a white star exploding? Or something to that? Think about hundreds of those. Thousands.
I tend to take any physicsy descriptions of what the Flash does with a shaker of salt. What actually happens on the page never matches what the hyperbolic description says. It all translates to "hit him with a more powerful than usual bolt of speedforce energy at the end of his fist."
Originally posted by Inhuman
well i can play that game too.
There is no evidence that flash can speed steal from a trans tier character powered by power primordial. Speed force and all its wackyness dont mean the same in the marvel verse.
I think it's just a troll/sock account.
Anyways, I agree with your post.
Speed-force speed-steal wouldn't necessarily work against Marvel characters, and it's not a given that Flash's control of kinetic energy would trump that of Surfer and Runner.
I believe team 2 wins, but that's mainly because of a speed-offensive, not them winning through speedsteal.
