Question for Muslims

Originally posted by SamZED
You might not know this but you need to actually make an argument in order to destroy someone in a debate. Baseless statements do not get any credibility just because you've used a word "literally".
All you did was prove that you're a bigot, the kind most of the world you've mentioned in the OP and western culture in particular looks down upon with disgust, you're basically a little kid who's been bullied at school by an Asian guy and grew up hating all the Asians as a result. Blindly, stubbornly and with passion.

I destroyed you whole debate and you came up with nothing but saying I didn't have a gf and when you got owned on that, you ran and back to this. I accept your concession, you lost.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Been trying my hardest to stay out of this conversation, but on the Bush quotes exchange:

"I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

"I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."

" I believe there's an Almighty, and I believe the Almighty's great gift to each man and woman in this world is the desire to be free. This isn't America's gift to the world, it is a universal gift to the world, and people want to be free."

However, in Dubya's defense, however, he also said this:

"I tell people all the time, you're equally American if you're a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. You're equally American if you believe in an Almighty or don't believe in an Almighty. That's a sacred freedom."

All of the above quotes can be found, verbatim, with a quick Google search. So no, Shakya, Digi actually isn't lying on this one, and it's not "Atheistic Radicalism".

People can have their own opinion, but those are not official governmental statements. People take things out of context, and represent them as something they are not. Are you stating that a president cannot be religious and say things accidentally? Find me an official government document that states that the war in Iraq was a mission from God. Otherwise it was just a person's opinion and is not a reflection of the government of the US.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Backpedalling.

I'm talking with Shakya and attempting to clear up a misconception. He and I are discussing ideas. Even if he's calling me a hypocrite, I'm ok with that, because we're responding to one another's points and posts. You're busy PMing me to insult me about my job situation.

Originally posted by Digi
I'm talking with Shakya and attempting to clear up a misconception. He and I are discussing ideas. Even if he's calling me a hypocrite, I'm ok with that, because we're responding to one another's points and posts. You're busy PMing me to insult me about my job situation.

You to busy insulting Mormons and Buddism and defending Islamic Radicals to think clearly.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I destroyed you whole debate and you came up with nothing but saying I didn't have a gf and when you got owned on that, you ran and back to this. I accept your concession, you lost.

Originally posted by SamZED
You're the one who brought her up instead of being an adult and addressing any of my points about you making baseless generalized statements about a billion + people. If anyone's running it's you, you've been trying to change the subject ever since I called you on your bs. So far you're going a great job of owning yourself, I'm just helping a little. I never conceded but whatever helps you better sleep at night.

I clarified and said radicals, but you to stupid to understand what clarification means. And how did I change the subject, quit lying. You got bested.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
Been trying my hardest to stay out of this conversation, but on the Bush quotes exchange:

"I am driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

"I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn't do my job."

" I believe there's an Almighty, and I believe the Almighty's great gift to each man and woman in this world is the desire to be free. This isn't America's gift to the world, it is a universal gift to the world, and people want to be free."

However, in Dubya's defense, he also said this:

"I tell people all the time, you're equally American if you're a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. You're equally American if you believe in an Almighty or don't believe in an Almighty. That's a sacred freedom."

All of the above quotes can be found, verbatim, with a quick Google search. So no, Shakya, Digi actually isn't lying on this one, and it's not "Atheistic Radicalism".

I like the fact that Bush stood up for what he believes and that USA was founded on "One Nation Under God" and "In God we Trust"

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I clarified and said radicals, but you to stupid to understand what clarification means. And how did I change the subject, quit lying. You got bested.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
Backpedalling.

👆 there's a difference.

Originally posted by Digi
You're more rational than what I have experienced with Buddhism in general. I may be wrong, but I wasn't trying to denigrate a religion in that comment. Buddhism has a lot to like, even if I don't agree with every belief of every Buddhist.

Yup. 👆 Shakya is good dude. I like him and almost all of his world views.

Originally posted by Digi
Dudemon is another I'd say this about. He's Mormon, which I disagree with, but his nuanced worldview is much more intellectually rational. I have a hard time disagreeing with him on much...same with you. It was perhaps a poor phrase, but not intended as a statement on Buddhism.

blushing

Originally posted by Digi
Ah. Ok. That line was never meant as an insult. Only a compliment. You're more rational than what I have experienced with Buddhism in general. I may be wrong, but I wasn't trying to denigrate a religion in that comment. Buddhism has a lot to like, even if I don't agree with every belief of every Buddhist. Dudemon is another I'd say this about. He's Mormon, which I disagree with, but his nuanced worldview is much more intellectually rational. I have a hard time disagreeing with him on much...same with you. It was perhaps a poor phrase, but not intended as a statement on Buddhism.

I wasn't offended. I'm just pointing out your own "demons".

Originally posted by Digi
Not intentionally, at least. This happened, unless every source I've read about it is wrong. Bush was fond of invoking God's Will during his candidacy and presidency. This was just one of the biggest examples of it.

But that wasn't the government's opinion on the war. It was just Bush's opinion. You made it sound like it was the official government opinion. I'm just pointing out that your own religious prejudice keeps you from seeing the difference.

We can all be blinded by our prejudices and be hypocritical.

BTW Time Immemorial, the fact that I pointed out that everyone else maybe hypocrites doesn't exclude you. This is a disgusting thread. I suggest you put more thought into your questions.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
People can have their own opinion, but those are not official governmental statements. People take things out of context, and represent them as something they are not. Are you stating that a president cannot be religious and say things accidentally? Find me an official government document that states that the war in Iraq was a mission from God. Otherwise it was just a person's opinion and is not a reflection of the government of the US.

I'm providing quotes to demonstrate that Bush did say that his actions were inspired by God. His own words. There's also quotes from various Senators and Representatives along the same lines who all voted in the affirmative to support the war. Yes, people can have their own opinions and Religious views. And people can also act upon those opinions, as well as make those opinions the basis for their political positions (pro-life and same sex marriage, for other contemporary examples), as their 'faith' informs their values and positions. I think there's a direct correlation between George Bush's statements of faith and 'doing God's mission' (paraphrasing) by wanting to bring democracy and freedom to Iraq and peace to the Middle East, and the policies he enacted there; just as there is a correlation between the various Senators and Representatives who oppose abortions and same sex marriage and the religious values they regularly espouse, including actual statements on their positions regarding the referendums being informed by their religious views. If there is a vote of 50 Senators and 28 of them are stating that their 'Christian Values' are informing their position on same sex marriage, I think that actually is a reflection of the government of the United States because these individuals actually compose the government. Not to mention Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, who would require a thread all unto himself to unpack his statements and judgments regarding the separation of church and state .

So no, I don't believe our political officials act under purely secular intentions, whether they include the religious wording in their official war declaration document or not is a bit of a red herring as it's the views that informed the vote that matter, not the final wording of the document. Just like the DOMA didn't include the term "God" or the phrase "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve".

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I like the fact that Bush stood up for what he believes and that USA was founded on "One Nation Under God" and "In God we Trust"

That actually can be commendable, yes. There are two sides of the sword occasionally, because we live in a diverse religious population, but standing up for one's convictions, in and of itself, can be good. But Delph's words were to corroborate something that you said was a lie. It was not.

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
You to busy insulting Mormons and Buddism and defending Islamic Radicals to think clearly.

I hope violent Islamic extremists die horribly, in the manner in which they tortured and killed their victims. What exactly do you think I've been saying this whole time?

DDM and I get along. Shakya and I do as well, small exceptions aside. I can say I disagree with Mormonism/Buddhism and it's no big deal.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I wasn't offended. I'm just pointing out your own "demons".

Ok, cool. I do think you're reading too much into it, but point taken.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
But that wasn't the government's opinion on the war. It was just Bush's opinion. You made it sound like it was the official government opinion. I'm just pointing out that your own religious prejudice keeps you from seeing the difference.

We can all be blinded by our prejudices and be hypocritical.

BTW Time Immemorial, the fact that I pointed out that everyone else maybe hypocrites doesn't exclude you. This is a disgusting thread. I suggest you put more thought into your questions.

"The government" is nebulous. Bush was its leader. I agree that the US government doesn't espouse that thinking, but when its President is acting in a manner that bridges democracy with theocracy, I don't care which religion it is, or what the official documents say, I'm concerned.

Originally posted by Lestov16
You've never heard of the Westboro Baptist Church?

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
The church with 39 members in some podunk town, yes. I have. Nothing those wackos have done compares to the damage radical Islam does and continues to do. Yes they are against homosexuals, but they don't kill and hang them like they do in Iran.

I thought I replied to this, already...but I didn't..

Regardless, the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC), while extreme, is very very careful about how they do their radical bullshit. They hold up signs and say disgusting things. They make sure they follow all legal considerations, perfectly. They most certainly do not bomb abortion clinics, make their followers swallow poison, play with poisonous snakes, suicide bomb, shoot people with guns, etc.

They do not compare to radical jihadist Muslims, imo. There are other Christians or people strongly influenced by Christianity that do some stuff similar to those radical Muslims. The WBC is not one of them. There are several Christian militias on some closely monitored watch-lists that could do some of the shit that Muslims do. Yeah, those types are getting close to that edge with threats of violence and the stockpiling of weapons to wage war.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I'm providing quotes to demonstrate that Bush did say that his actions were inspired by God. His own words. There's also quotes from various Senators and Representatives along the same lines who all voted in the affirmative to support the war. Yes, people can have their own opinions and Religious views. And people can also act upon those opinions, as well as make those opinions the basis for their political positions (pro-life and same sex marriage, for other contemporary examples), as their 'faith' informs their values and positions. I think there's a direct correlation between George Bush's statements of faith and 'doing God's mission' (paraphrasing) by wanting to bring democracy and freedom to Iraq and peace to the Middle East, and the policies he enacted there; just as there is a correlation between the various Senators and Representatives who oppose abortions and same sex marriage and the religious values they regularly espouse, including actual statements on their positions regarding the referendums being informed by their religious views. If there is a vote of 50 Senators and 28 of them are stating that their 'Christian Values' are informing their position on same sex marriage, I think that actually is a reflection of the government of the United States because these individuals actually compose the government. Not to mention Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia, who would require a thread all unto himself to unpack his statements and judgments regarding the separation of church and state .

So no, I don't believe our political officials act under purely secular intentions, whether they include the religious wording in their official war declaration document or not is a bit of a red herring as it's the views that informed the vote that matter, not the final wording of the document. Just like the DOMA didn't include the term "God" or the phrase "God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve".

That's not the point. I was responding to what Digi said. I'm not interested beyond that.

Originally posted by Digi
You're busy PMing me to insult me about my job situation.

😂

Classic

Originally posted by SamZED
You didn't clarify jack, you made a generalized statement and I called you on your bs. So instead of admitting that you were wrong you started talking about the difference between "beheading" and "stealing" as if you're too stupid to understand the analogy. So yes, changing the subject. If you really wanted to clarify that you're not talking about Muslims in general but only radicals you would've done it the second I've mentioned "over a billion people" on the first page. You didn't. What you actually did is called..

👆 there's a difference.

You obviously are butt hurt about a religion you don't even partake in. If you read the OP you could specifically see I was talking about radicals, be mad bro, be real mad 😆 😆

Originally posted by Time Immemorial
I like the fact that Bush stood up for what he believes and that USA was founded on "One Nation Under God" and "In God we Trust"

One Nation Under God = 1892

In God We Trust = 1812

United States of America founded = 1776

All taken from wiki. You're welcome.

Originally posted by dadudemon
I thought I replied to this, already...but I didn't..

Regardless, the Westboro Baptist Church (WBC), while extreme, is very very careful about how they do their radical bullshit. They hold up signs and say disgusting things. They make sure they follow all legal considerations, perfectly. They most certainly do not bomb abortion clinics, make their followers swallow poison, play with poisonous snakes, suicide bomb, shoot people with guns, etc.

They do not compare to radical jihadist Muslims, imo. There are other Christians or people strongly influenced by Christianity that do some stuff similar to those radical Muslims. The WBC is not one of them. There are several Christian militias on some closely monitored watch-lists that could do some of the shit that Muslims do. Yeah, those types are getting close to that edge with threats of violence and the stockpiling of weapons to wage war.

Lest was just posting some off the wall small crazy church group and trying to childishly compare them to radical muslims.

I think the best comparison between Islamic Jihadists and a radical Christian sect would be the Ku Klux Klan.

Originally posted by MF DELPH
I think the best comparison between Islamic Jihadists and a radical Christian sect would be the Ku Klux Klan.

Thats a good comparison. I think they call themselves Christians however they are not Christians.