Originally posted by Nephthys
Yeah, just like he needed to to get to him ANH!
Oh yeah that was completely planned by Old Ben. Get accidentally captured in the Empire's most powerful weapon, sneak around hiding from Imperial soldiers trying to put the tractor beam down, have all the stormtroopers chasing Han, Luke and Leia, and then right at the end let Vader just find him for a nice 1 v 1.
Your right he could have done that any time.
He should have just done that at the best moment, a few days after ROTS.
But really he should have just killed Vader in the first place instead of just watching him burn like a sicko.
Yeah... No really don't get this idea that Kenobi can never leave Tatooine for a few days for an important enough mission. Heck in Maul's case, it could be Maul who finds him and forces him out.
Re: Tempest's Official Primer on Sidious > Maul&Savage
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Since one or two particularly intractable posters intermittently reintroduce this topic as though there's more to discuss, this is a quick read for one's edification.?v=-7hBZNsPnyg
The "conflict" technically begins at 1:45 when Sidious attacks the brothers with the Force. Both Zabraks are pinned to the throne room windows and visibly squirm and struggle to release themselves, releasing stress fractures along the glass. Sidious, on the other hand, is smiling and snickering, visibly effortless. He releases them of his own accord and allows them to arm themselves. At 2:09, the brothers cage Sidious each with a two-armed blade lock. He holds them at bay with one hand each, pushing both their blades back, still smiling and cackling.
No stress, fear, concern, anxiety, or effort visibly demonstrated to convey that he's having a hard time or requiring full demand of his abilities, unlike his duels with Yoda and Mace
At 2:20, Savage knocks Sidious off a balcony
At 2:21, Sidious Force grips both brothers and drags them with him
At 2:30, Sidious kicks Maul in the chest
At 2:32, Sidious elbows Savage in the face
At 2:42, Sidious back-kicks Savage off the ramp
At 2:45, Sidious Force slams Maul unconscious
At 2:55, Sidious deactivates his lightsabers and casually dances around two of Savage's strikes
At 2:58, Sidious kicks Savage in the chest
At 3:06, Sidious roundhouse kicks Savage in the face, stunning him
At 3:08, Sidious impales Savage with both blades from behind
At 3:13, Sidious Force pushes Savage off a balcony
At 4:07, Sidious kicks Maul in the chest
At 4:14, Maul kicks Sidious in the chest
At 4:18, Sidious and Maul engage in blade lock with Maul beginning from a position of leverage. Sidious overpowers him and disarms him at 4:22
At 4:25, Sidious Force grips Maul and throws him on the ground
At 4:29, Sidious throws Maul into a wall
At 4:31, Sidious slams Maul on the ground again
At 4:41, Sidious inundates Maul with Force lightning and does so again at 4:55In this play-by-play, the times that each brother lands a hit of any sort blow against Sidious via physical dominance or the Force is encoded in red. Everything else in standard black is the reverse for Sidious. As you can see, it's hilariously lopsided. This isn't a contest of peers.
So if the patently obvious isn't enough, what else is there?
How about director commentary:
I even posted actual scans rather than putting the burden on any of you heretics to click links. Here it is.
So, to recap: the entire point of the duel was a love letter to Sidious's epic mastery and why he's the biggest BAMF around. Filoni describes it as an ass kicking, confirms that he's enjoying himself the entire time, and that his opponents can't even "compete" with him. He even implies that lightsabers were superfluous by "deciding" to deactivate them and "maul Maul."
That's how lopsided this fight is. Sidious is beyond them by miles and miles and miles. It's all there on-screen and Filoni went to exhausting lengths to repeatedly confirm one of the most ridiculously straightforward battles in Star Wars history.
Any moronic pursuit of this further as though the matter is open to debate can simply be directed to this thread.
tl;dr: Sheev's a god, that's all. This debate is officially closed by decree of Tempest.
After the span of nearly a month, the unadulterated truth of this post continues to mesmerize.
Re: Re: Tempest's Official Primer on Sidious > Maul&Savage
Originally posted by The_Tempest
After the span of nearly a month, the unadulterated truth of this post continues to mesmerize.
Your entire post of proof would be just as applicable to if Dooku was facing say Ventress and Grievous, or going by EU, Ventress and Sora Bulq. Which is why Dooku was without any question Their MASTER. But again none of that means Dooku can speed blitz Ventress and Grievous, or Ventress and Sora Bulq, or that they'll go down to Dooku without a fight.
No ones denying that Maul and Opress combined were outmatched by Sidious. It's the B-Team style speed blitzing thing that gets to people (myself included) as that was never shown or even implied anywhere.
In fact I don't even buy into this "Invisible speed" hyperbole.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Tempest's Official Primer on Sidious > Maul&Savage
Originally posted by ILS
Probably because you either don't like reading books or you don't understand what hyperbole actually is.
Your problem is you fantasize too much about Invisible Speed and Invincible Combat Prowess that's never been shown to us on screen.
Your other problem is you cling too heavily to Non-Canon sources.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Is the shitty fight choreography of the Mace and Friends vs. Sideous fight really the crux of your argument?
No, the evidence is plenty.
1. We've never seen this "invisible" speed in action in either the canon films or in the canon animation.
2, Jedi are taken on by non-force users who don't have any significant superhuman speed as far as we know all the time- Obi-Wan vs Jango Fett, Windu vs Jango Fett, Maul vs Pre-Vizsla. Heck Anakin Skywalker vs Hondo!
3. We've seen Sidious fight Mace in the films. You're saying that's shiity choreography? Fine. We've seen Sidious fight Yoda in the films, where Yoda was completely CGI. We've seen Yoda fight Dooku in the films. We've seen Sidious fight the Maul bros in the Animation. At no point anywhere was there "invisible combat speed." Not once. The closest we get is the speed they have when they leap around.
So what's the Crux of your argument? The fact that it's written in the Now Non-Canon novels that Skywalker saw Sidious and Mace as blurs? Yeah, no, I'll give the entire visual medium priority over that any day. It's not like it would have been so damn expensive to show everything around Yoda and Sidious move in slow motion when they fight. Especially not in Animation.
Originally posted by DARTH POWER Jedi are taken on by non-force users who don't have any significant superhuman speed as far as we know all the time- Obi-Wan vs Jango Fett, Windu vs Jango Fett, Maul vs Pre-Vizsla. Heck Anakin Skywalker vs Hondo!Right, and Jedi also never use their force powers to levitate these people into the air and just chop their legs off, as well. Does that mean that Jedi don't have the ability to levitate objects, or do you just not know what plot-induced stupidity is?
So what's the Crux of your argument?The crux of my argument is that using the speed of the characters during that scene as a metric for anything is stupid. You could argue that TPM Obi-Wan is a faster fighter than Mace and Palpatine based off of their fight scene, because he and Maul were exchanging blows a whole hell of a lot faster than Palpatine and Mace were.
The fact that it's written in the Now Non-Canon novels that Skywalker saw Sidious and Mace as blurs? Yeah, no, I'll give the entire visual medium priority over that any day. It's not like it would have been so damn expensive to show everything around Yoda and Sidious move in slow motion when they fight. Especially not in Animation. [/B]So you're arguing that the reason we don't see them move at super-human speeds relative to their environment is because the writers don't intend them to? That's a strange argument to make when one considers that Lucas has outright stated that the feats of the characters in the old CW cartoon, where they were running around like blurs and doing silly shit, was how he actually imagined them to be.
There are precedents within the mythos of the characters fighting at super-human speeds, from Kyle Katarn to Luke and Palpatine fighting so fast that they were both invisible to Leia's eyes to Mace and Vastor fist-fighting so fast that they were both repeatedly described as blurs.
Clinging to the notion that Jedi can't or don't fight at superhuman speeds due to them moving in real-time in the movies and cartoons is grasping. There is not a single instance in any of Thor's movie fights where he's ever shown actually exchanging blows at super-human speeds, but you would probably shit your pants if I argued that he'd be completely helpless against Trinity from the Matrix in a fist-fight on account of that.
Originally posted by TzeentchI like this guy.
There is not a single instance in any of Thor's movie fights where he's ever shown actually exchanging blows at super-human speeds, but you would probably shit your pants if I argued that he'd be completely helpless against Trinity from the Matrix in a fist-fight on account of that.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
Right, and Jedi also never use their force powers to levitate these people into the air and just chop their legs off, as well. Does that mean that Jedi don't have the ability to levitate objects, or do you just not know what plot-induced stupidity is?
Yeah problem in your logic is, we've seen Jedi levitate people.
Heck we've seen Jedi/Sith levitate other Jedi/Sith.
I've seen Dooku choke and levitate Kenobi, flinging him across the room whilst kick slamming Skywalker.
I've seen Yoda completely freeze Ventress, let her go, then when she goes to attack again draw her Lightsaber to him.
Heck I've seen Yoda draw a running away droid to him with Tk, and cut him completely up.
These are all things we've seen showing that yes, against the right opponent and under the right circumstances, Jedi can levitate and cut people up. Although it's obviously against their code to just randomly cut people.
However I've seen nothing from Jedi/Sith like the kind of Invisible combat speed people go on about in these boards.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
The crux of my argument is that using the speed of the characters during that scene as a metric for anything is stupid. You could argue that TPM Obi-Wan is a faster fighter than Mace and Palpatine based off of their fight scene, because he and Maul were exchanging blows a whole hell of a lot faster than Palpatine and Mace were. So you're arguing that the reason we don't see them move at super-human speeds relative to their environment is because the writers don't intend them to? That's a strange argument to make when one considers that Lucas has outright stated that the feats of the characters in the old CW cartoon, where they were running around like blurs and doing silly shit, was how he actually imagined them to be.
Firstly don't give me that Lucas stated the OCW was how he imagined them to be. Because that's not how they made them to be. And he specifically talked with Dave Filoni how Jedi can't do the kind of s*** they did in OCW, because if they could Windu would have solo'd the entire droid army on Geonosis. OCW displayed an exaggerated use of the Force as explained many times and is no longer canon along with the rest of the EU.
Secondly just as your saying "using the speed of the characters during that scene as a metric for anything is stupid" I would say that on the contrary, assuming "Invisible2 speed exists in SW when nothing close to that has ever been shown simply down to Hyperbolic statements in now Non-Canon novels is equally stupid.
The films may have had some bad choreography at times, but that's no excuse to never show this "Invisible speed" throughout tons of animation. And it's no excuse to not even show 1 scene in an entire film which shows us how fast these guys are.
Look at the old Christopher Reeves Superman films for instance. Did they show him fight at superhuman speeds every time he fights? No. But they certainly gave MORE than enough evidence that he does. From the blurred movements at times, through the super fast changing, from getting to the Moon in a few seconds/minutes, right down to catching a bullet, and specifically showing it moving in slow motion to him.
Now those were movies back from the 70's! You really telling me that movies and an entire animated series in the 21st century just couldn't give us that kind of evidence?
No. You need to wake up to the truth of it. Jedi have pre-cog, and they leap around at really fast speeds (though still not invisible), and perhaps a short sprint at really fast speeds (at least that was shown once). But their actual combat speed in Lightsaber fights? Evidence shows that to be slightly superhuman at best.
Originally posted by Tzeentch
There are precedents within the mythos of the characters fighting at super-human speeds, from Kyle Katarn to Luke and Palpatine fighting so fast that they were both invisible to Leia's eyes to Mace and Vastor fist-fighting so fast that they were both repeatedly described as blurs.Clinging to the notion that Jedi can't or don't fight at superhuman speeds due to them moving in real-time in the movies and cartoons is grasping. There is not a single instance in any of Thor's movie fights where he's ever shown actually exchanging blows at super-human speeds, but you would probably shit your pants if I argued that he'd be completely helpless against Trinity from the Matrix in a fist-fight on account of that.
Like I said, it's all going by hyperbolic descriptions in novels (things like "IF Kar was Fast THEN Mace was Invisible"😉 which are now Non-Canon anyway. And even previously, they were canon but always behind the movies and animation in canonicity. In fact there was a whole discussion on these boards once where Leeland Chee said that true feats are those in line with the movies, and that those feats that don't fit in with them are exaggerated.
Movie Thor in terms of continuity has appeared in what 3 movies? And maybe a comic here and there.
And still we've been given enough evidence of what he can do. He has superhuman speed without Mjolnir. Because we see him bullrush Hulk through a wall. We see him dodge CGI Hulk's punches, and we see some slow motion of him dodging a Jet Wing.
With Mjolnir we see him fly around bullrushing the Frost Beast on Jotunheim. We've seen him swing Mjolnir at incredible speeds, plus we've seen the use of so many of his exotic powers, that no he wouldn't be defenseless against Trinity from Matrix.
But it's not like he's had trouble hitting Hawkeye, or even Captain America for that matter.
With the Jedi/Sith it's completely different. We've seen them CONSISTENTLY face off against Non-Force users with No Obvious Superhuman speed. We've had 6 films (3 of them in the days of CGI effects) and tons of animation, yet Not a single evidence of them Fighting at Superhuman speeds. Not even once (aside from the leaping around, and possibly sprinting at times).
And I'll tell you what, if a novel about Movie Avengers, said he was fighting Hulk at close to the speed of Light, I would completely ignore it! And I certainly wouldn't start Trolling Superman fans saying Thor fights faster than MOS, because even though we've never seen it, it said it in the Novel!
Originally posted by DARTH POWERFirstly don't give me that Lucas stated the OCW was how he imagined them to be. Because that's not how they made them to be. And he specifically talked with Dave Filoni how Jedi can't do the kind of s*** they did in OCW, because if they could Windu would have solo'd the entire droid army on Geonosis. OCW displayed an exaggerated use of the Force as explained many times and is no longer canon along with the rest of the EU.
👆
Re: Re: Re: Tempest's Official Primer on Sidious > Maul&Savage
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Your entire post of proof would be just as applicable to if Dooku was facing say Ventress and Grievous, or going by EU, Ventress and Sora Bulq. Which is why Dooku was without any question Their MASTER. But again none of that means Dooku can speed blitz Ventress and Grievous, or Ventress and Sora Bulq, or that they'll go down to Dooku without a fight.No ones denying that Maul and Opress combined were outmatched by Sidious. It's the B-Team style speed blitzing thing that gets to people (myself included) as that was never shown or even implied anywhere.
In fact I don't even buy into this "Invisible speed" hyperbole.
Nah, you just don't like the fact that folks like Maul and Obi-Wan are ants to Sidious. You deeply fantasize about a world in which they're dangerous to him, when in reality he's just a billion times better. It confounds and deeply frustrates you.
Which pleases me. excellent
Re: Re: Re: Re: Tempest's Official Primer on Sidious > Maul&Savage
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Nah, you just don't like the fact that folks like Maul and Obi-Wan are ants to Sidious. You deeply fantasize about a world in which they're dangerous to him, when in reality he's just a billion times better. It confounds and deeply frustrates you.Which pleases me. excellent
Lol Okaaaay.
Just never forget all it took was a Cripple to grab him from behind and shove him down a reactor shaft. Whilst no one as of yet as managed to kill Maul : )
