Originally posted by Nephthys
I put Kas'im above all of her comtemporaries in lightsaber skill and Bane was beating him and stated that he knew everything Kas'im could throw out. So you're drastically selling him sort there.
Bane lied, as evidenced by his fight with Kas'im. When Kas'im broke his saberstaff in half and switched to a dual wielding form, Bane certainly was ignorant of it and very unprepared for it.
Seems as if you are ignoring that simply to talk up your girl. Let's get away from the willful ignorance and bias, please, and try not to continue to mislead people in order to "win."
Originally posted by Nephthys
I assumed I didn't have to mention Bane's critical lack of training versus dual blades. He didn't lie, he just didn't know about that trick yet.
If he said he knew everything Kas'im could throw at him, and he didn't, it kinda seems like a lie. A lie born from ignorance is still a lie.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Well in a pure lightsaber duel I imagine Zannah would wear Jaina down and tire her out until she can afford to go on the offense and beat her. Zannah's specifically trained in stamina and her style requires the minimal amount of effort from herself to go up against attackers. Jaina would tire first in a duel if she can't get through the defense.But her real strategy will be to defend long enough to hit her with a suped-up spell and take her out with the Force.
I put Kas'im above all of her comtemporaries in lightsaber skill and Bane was beating him and stated that he knew everything Kas'im could throw out. So you're drastically selling him sort there.
The Dark Temple that non-force sensitives can walk in no probs and Abeloth who non-force sensitives could fight? Nice.
No-one's saying Jaina is mentally weak, but her will doesn't compare to Bane's and Zannah's amped up attack would have torn his mind apart. Jaina can't deal with a direct mental attack of that caliber.
No one mentioned stealth lol.
I am not convinced at all that it will be as simple as you are attempting to portray it, if she tries to hit her with an illusion spell then it would have to be damn powerful.
If you are actually going to try and tell me that Abeloth's indoctrination, which completely enslaved high ranking Sith Lords is not as strong as a spell that can be endured through with strong enough will then i suggest getting off the end of Zannah's lightsaber.
Oh and the Dark Force Temple and Dark Temple are not the same places, you may want to research that.
Oh and just because Bane was a stubborn ****er doesn't mean that no one else can even compare. Strength of will is required, Jaina IS strong willed, if you have ever read any FotJ novels or heck even just the Jedi Academy trilogy you would know her and Jacen have very strong willpower.
A natural battle meld user isn't going to just curl up into the fetal position with one bad dream, after the Yuuzhan Vong torturing devices, which torture mind and body, I highly doubt Jaina is anywhere near as susceptible as you are making her out to be.
Jaina has great endurance feats and excellent replenishment feats on top of that, she fought an entire duel with numerous injuries.
Kas'im superior to the NJO masters? that's the best joke I've heard all day.
Jaina has better endurance feats, the style and force abilities to back it up and better yet she is a far far more cunning fighter in general, she doesn't rely solely on her lightsaber.
Oh and Jaina was particularly good at analyzing her opponents and prodding for weaknesses (the fact she is a great shatterpoint user is probably why), saying that because Bane didn't go for her lightsaber hilt means no one else would is a fallacy at best. Jaina was trained to go for enemy weaknesses and that elongated hilt is a huge one.
Originally posted by AncientPower
I am not convinced at all that it will be as simple as you are attempting to portray it, if she tries to hit her with an illusion spell then it would have to be damn powerful.
Originally posted by AncientPower
If you are actually going to try and tell me that Abeloth's indoctrination, which completely enslaved high ranking Sith Lords is not as strong as a spell that can be endured through with strong enough will then i suggest getting off the end of Zannah's lightsaber.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh and the Dark Force Temple and Dark Temple are not the same places, you may want to research that.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh and just because Bane was a stubborn ****er doesn't mean that no one else can even compare. Strength of will is required, Jaina IS strong willed, if you have ever read any FotJ novels or heck even just the Jedi Academy trilogy you would know her and Jacen have very strong willpower.
Originally posted by AncientPower
A natural battle meld user isn't going to just curl up into the fetal position with one bad dream, after the Yuuzhan Vong torturing devices, which torture mind and body, I highly doubt Jaina is anywhere near as susceptible as you are making her out to be.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Oh and Jaina was particularly good at analyzing her opponents and prodding for weaknesses
Originally posted by AncientPower
saying that because Bane didn't go for her lightsaber hilt means no one else would is a fallacy at best. Jaina was trained to go for enemy weaknesses and that elongated hilt is a huge one.
First of all, falling to Zannah's spells in DOE does not imply that one has a weak will. Just waking up from a coma caused by one of her casually cast weaker spells is considered a feat of willpower.
Both Bane and Zannah considered Zannah's illusions a viable threat to Bane, and both considered Bane's willpower the precipice upon which he would either overcome her illusions or fall to them. If one is not on or above Bane's tier of willpower, they shouldn't be able to resist Zannah's illusions, and I have seen no proof that Jaina is on that level.
Zannah's illusions also seek out buried fears, nightmares, and emotional trauma to dredge up and use against her target. Zannah has lost several friends in war, including her brothers, one of whom she actually killed. Her attachment to Fel is also a point of fear to be exploited.
So to put it bluntly, one does not have to be weak willed to fall to Zannah's weakest spell, Jaina has not proven herself to be on Bane's level in willpower, and Jaina has a lot more trauma to exploit than anyone Zannah has used her illusions against before. I am by no means saying that Jaina will go down as easily as Harth did, but she is not going to stand like Bane did.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
First of all, falling to Zannah's spells in DOE does not imply that one has a weak will. Just waking up from a coma caused by one of her casually cast weaker spells is considered a feat of willpower.Both Bane and Zannah considered Zannah's illusions a viable threat to Bane, and both considered Bane's willpower the precipice upon which he would either overcome her illusions or fall to them. If one is not on or above Bane's tier of willpower, they shouldn't be able to resist Zannah's illusions, and I have seen no proof that Jaina is on that level.
Zannah's illusions also seek out buried fears, nightmares, and emotional trauma to dredge up and use against her target. Zannah has lost several friends in war, including her brothers, one of whom she actually killed. Her attachment to Fel is also a point of fear to be exploited.
So to put it bluntly, one does not have to be weak willed to fall to Zannah's weakest spell, Jaina has not proven herself to be on Bane's level in willpower, and Jaina has a lot more trauma to exploit than anyone Zannah has used her illusions against before. I am by no means saying that Jaina will go down as easily as Harth did, but she is not going to stand like Bane did.
There is no way to quantify strength of will. Bane has not been proven to have stronger willpower than Jaina either.
Jaina and Jacen were kidnapped twice in childhood and both times darksiders failed to break their will. Jaina lost her first brother and managed to resist darkside temptations and get on with her life. She managed to maintain to fight and kill her brother and it didn't break her either. Not to mention that Caedus himself was known for his mind control and illusion abilities. If anything, Jaina demonstrated her strong will far more than Bane ever did.
Bane forcibly removed Andeddu's greatest secret from his holocron, which the Legacy comics reveal actually contained Andeddu's spirit. The process itself involved several hours of unwavering focus as he worked on a task "a million times more complex" then "slicing a secure computer network." It was stated that if Bane's will ever faltered at all in this process, his mind would be destroyed, yet he managed to do this for several hours while doing an extremely complex task.
Bane also had the strength of will to evoke the very challenging and dangerous ritual of essence transfer after having an arm severed by a dark side tendril. To put this in perspective, a mere nick from a tendril was stated to be far more painful than anything Bane had ever experienced, and Bane was once trapped inside of a sphere of his own lightning as orbalisks burrowed and burrowed deeper into his body, down to bone level as they expanded inside of him before exploding inside of him and releasing a corrosive toxin that began to break his body down on a molecular level. Just a nick from a tendril was far more painful than that, and transcended physical pain even, touching every synapse in his mind and clawing at the core of his spirit. That was brief, light contact from one of the tendrils, and after having an entire arm severed by one, Bane had the strength of will to evoke the ritual of essence transfer immediately afterwards.
These are more impressive displays of willpower than I've seen from Jaina.
Originally posted by Emperordmb
Bane forcibly removed Andeddu's greatest secret from his holocron, which the Legacy comics reveal actually contained Andeddu's spirit. The process itself involved several hours of unwavering focus as he worked on a task "a million times more complex" then "slicing a secure computer network." It was stated that if Bane's will ever faltered at all in this process, his mind would be destroyed, yet he managed to do this for several hours while doing an extremely complex task.Bane also had the strength of will to evoke the very challenging and dangerous ritual of essence transfer after having an arm severed by a dark side tendril. To put this in perspective, a mere nick from a tendril was stated to be far more painful than anything Bane had ever experienced, and Bane was once trapped inside of a sphere of his own lightning as orbalisks burrowed and burrowed deeper into his body, down to bone level as they expanded inside of him before exploding inside of him and releasing a corrosive toxin that began to break his body down on a molecular level. Just a nick from a tendril was far more painful than that, and transcended physical pain even, touching every synapse in his mind and clawing at the core of his spirit. That was brief, light contact from one of the tendrils, and after having an entire arm severed by one, Bane had the strength of will to evoke the ritual of essence transfer immediately afterwards.
These are more impressive displays of willpower than I've seen from Jaina.
Zannah showed ability to drive people insane, ok. Jaina demonstrated ability to erase memories. I guess I should start claiming that Zannah has no defense against it.