I'm with Bardock.
I mean, Esau even prefaced his joke with "a black guy told me this." But maybe Esau is black? I don't know
I think goofing around with your mates, who know you very well is all good if you're teasing them specifically. No harm there.
But I'd definitely call out my friend if he was making "******" jokes or something.
Originally posted by Scribble
"and if one of the readers is a rape victim they will feel belittled and ostracized" — I don't know if you should start making broad generalisations just yet, man. They don't hold up well to scrutiny. I'm sure there are plenty of rape survivors who have found humour to be an outlet for their emotional damage. When my mate's dad died, he started making jokes about it straight away, because he made fun of everything that way. And you could tell although it hurt him to make those jokes, that it was helping him face the pain of losing a parent. People do things different ways, so don't say "ALL rape survivors would find this offensive". It's just plain untrue.The 'Patriarchy' as it is known had more victims than just races. As a young white guy, I feel totally disenfranchised by the society I live in, but I'm not allowed to say that, am I? Because I'm white and a male, so there's no way I've ever been marginalised. And it's bullshit.
This is why I can't get behind the stuff you say on these matters — they don't focus on equality in any real way, they serve only to pander to those who are offended by things in obvious ways. It's a kneejerk liberal state of mind. Which is fine in some contexts — I felt very uncomfortable when I used to go to my ex's house and her parents and their friends would make racist jokes that I knew didn't have that self-satirical, ironic element. It bolstered the status quo. Making these jokes in that ironic way actually has potential to attack the status quo: i.e., your attempts at breaking us down don't work any more, we've turned them into something harmless. And for that to work, we all need to be fair game, and accept that we aren't attacking each other. We're creating solidarity by accepting that we are more than our stereotype tells us we are.
You are right that people deal differently with trauma, however many people do have problems with it being made light of, and that should be considered when posting on a public forum...
Who is stopping you from saying that you feel disenfranchised? Having privileges in some areas doesn't mean that you can't have problems, and that you aren't allowed to talk about them.
I feel like you are arguing against some perceived dictatorial POV that I do not have and never stated...
Originally posted by KharhmahWhite people as a race aren't, but white people are oppressed all the time — we're all ****ing oppressed these days, and these notions of race and gender only serve to separate us and direct us away from the bigger problems.
Short answer: White people in general aren't oppressed at all.
Originally posted by Bardock42I'm arguing against the notions of "don't make jokes," "white males can be attacked because they're the ones who oppress everyone," "it's okay to insult one ethnic group but not another," all of these contradictory things you seem to be putting across. Have I got that wrong? 'Cause if I have then I apologise, but that's what I get from this: it's okay to belittle one group of people because they aren't "oppressed" by your standards. Which I call bullshit on.
You are right that people deal differently with trauma, however many people do have problems with it being made light of, and that should be considered when posting on a public forum...Who is stopping you from saying that you feel disenfranchised? Having privileges in some areas doesn't mean that you can't have problems, and that you aren't allowed to talk about them.
I feel like you are arguing against some perceived dictatorial POV that I do not have and never stated...
Also: dead public forum. Barely anybody comes here. It's not like they were posting this stuff direct to Facebook for the whole world to see.
Originally posted by Scribble
I'm arguing against the notions of "don't make jokes," "white males can be attacked because they're the ones who oppress everyone," "it's okay to insult one ethnic group but not another," all of these contradictory things you seem to be putting across. Have I got that wrong? 'Cause if I have then I apologise, but that's what I get from this: it's okay to belittle one group of people because they aren't "oppressed" by your standards. Which I call bullshit on.Also: dead public forum. Barely anybody comes here. It's not like they were posting this stuff direct to Facebook for the whole world to see.
They aren't contradictory though. Because it's not "don't make jokes" but "consider not making jokes at the expense of oppressed groups" it's not "white males can be attacked" it's "jokes about a dominant group that's not oppressed aren't really problematic".
Should you make jokes at the expense of white people? Probably not, it's not nice really. Is it the same as making jokes at the expense of black people? No, it isn't, they are completely different scenarios.
Originally posted by Bardock42Are they though, really? The white people who oppressed people in the past were power-hungry monsters who used any means to keep and sustain the power they got, they oppressed every other race they could, they made gender norms, they kept The Masses in line and did everything they could to stop anyone clever enough to challenge them from getting far.
They aren't contradictory though. Because it's not "don't make jokes" but "consider not making jokes at the expense of oppressed groups" it's not "white males can be attacked" it's "jokes about a dominant group that's not oppressed aren't really problematic".Should you make jokes at the expense of white people? Probably not, it's not nice really. Is it the same as making jokes at the expense of black people? No, it isn't, they are completely different scenarios.
They aren't the white people I know. The white people I know are mostly polite, intelligent and conscientious, hate the state of the world and are sick of those in power subjugating us. So why is it okay to put us in the same hole as those who did the oppressing? It isn't.
However, as I was saying, humour is one of our last refuges, and I intend to fight for it. I'm a big believer in humour as a healer, and I think everyone stereotyping each other (and oneself) in jokes is a powerful way of showing solidarity as a people. We see through the shitty ways that we've all been treated — yes, all, whites and males, too (we are people y'know!! ohwaityouareone!!) — and we're taking the impact out of the ways that they put us down. Humour is a positive force, so stop treating it like something dirty and rude.
I don't know who you are arguing with, I most definitely didn't say that the active oppressors of the past are the same as white people who now benefit from the heinous acts that were perpetrated back then.
I am a big fan of humor as well, that's why I suggested to make jokes at the expense of power structures that keep people down, instead of at the expense of the people that are kept down. Try to be Stewart Lee, not Tosh 2.0.
Originally posted by Bardock42Yeah, but you were saying it's more okay to make fun of white people because... well, why? Because they're the oppressors. I'm not an oppressor, I'm white, right? So what's the deal?
I don't know who you are arguing with, I most definitely didn't say that the active oppressors of the past are the same as white people who now benefit from the heinous acts that were perpetrated back then.I am a big fan of humor as well, that's why I suggested to make jokes at the expense of power structures that keep people down, instead of at the expense of the people that are kept down. Try to be Stewart Lee, not Tosh 2.0.
Comedians doing it on stage is a bigger issue. I am not a fan of offensive comedians; I don't like Frankie Boyle, as, to quote Stewart Lee himself, he shows "contempt for the vulnerable." (Or, as channel 4 call it, 'edge.'😉 Doing it on stage is a big difference to doing it in small groups. Huuuge difference. Context is everything. I'm purely defending people in this thread. They should be allowed to make whatever jokes they want without a bunch of people running in shouting OMG!! THAT'S WACIST!! THAT'S SEXIST!!
One white guy up on stage? He should show some respect, yeah. And for sexism, any guy should. I watched some arsefart wanker comedian, what's his name, Kevin Hart, and I was offended. I was shocked at how misogynistic he was, and how there were females in the audience laughing. Hence why I like Lee, and the way that he tears apart the system in place, with some sweet self-deprecation thrown in. A white guy and a black guy double act? Why shouldn't they mock each other, highlight the inherent stupidity behind racist remarks? Context, sir, context. It means everything.
I know you guys are in the midst of a real debate and speaking coherently - and I don't want to ruin the flow or anything, but I'm not sure about this point Bibbsy
Originally posted by Scribble
Context is everything. I'm purely defending people in this thread. They should be allowed to make whatever jokes they want without a bunch of people running in shouting OMG!! THAT'S WACIST!! THAT'S SEXIST!!
I mean, if someone makes a racist joke or says something really sexist, I'll let them know I think that.
They invited my opinion when they said such idiotic things. They can retort that I'm "no fun" but like, screw that guy, ya know?
Size of the crowd doesn't really matter when it comes to hateful comments.
If you look back at what I said, I did not say that it's acceptable to make fun of white people cause they are oppressors, I said it's more acceptable because they aren't oppressed.
You are correct when you say "context is everything". Which is what I have been talking about, the context of making fun of white people and making fun of black people is different. And yes, the context of which group or what stage you make the jokes on matters as well. If you want to make these jokes with your friends, of whom you are sure they consent and are fine with it, by all means, if that's what you enjoy, but once you extend it to the greater public, for example by making these jokes loudly in public or posting them on a forum, that is a context that to me changes the dynamic.
So again, a racist, sexist joke, the punchline of which seems to be "haha rape is funny, haha, black people raping white women, that's something people think, that's funny" ... I don't see the value in that, in fact, I see the harm that these attitudes have brought to society, and that's why I suggest people don't do it, and think worse of them if they do (again, you may note that nowhere do I forbid anything, I don't have the authority to do so even if I wanted to).
And I think the right to say what you want goes both ways, if you want to make a racist joke no one is stopping you, if people then want to point out it's racist and shun you for it, that's fine too.
Originally posted by QuincyLike I say, in that context, **** yeah. Tell them straight up. I'd more than likely do the same. Again, this is a thread on a mostly dead forum, if people want to tell race jokes (especially considering that one of those people is Black), it just seems dumb to keep coming back in and scolding them. Let 'em be. I don't find most of the jokes funny (a lot of them are ancient, anyway), but they literally are not hurting anyone, nor are they intending to.
I know you guys are in the midst of a real debate and speaking coherently - and I don't want to ruin the flow or anything, but I'm not sure about this point BibbsyI mean, if someone makes a racist joke or says something really sexist, I'll let them know I think that.
They invited my opinion when they said such idiotic things. They can retort that I'm "no fun" but like, screw that guy, ya know?
Size of the crowd doesn't really matter when it comes to hateful comments.
Originally posted by Bardock42And as I said, I feel oppressed. I am White. Therefore I am a White person being oppressed (most often by White people, mind you). So... yeah. I still don't see your point as to why it's more acceptable. Still seems like a double standard to me.
If you look back at what I said, I did not say that it's acceptable to make fun of white people cause they are oppressors, I said it's more acceptable because they aren't oppressed.You are correct when you say "context is everything". Which is what I have been talking about, the context of making fun of white people and making fun of black people is different. And yes, the context of which group or what stage you make the jokes on matters as well. If you want to make these jokes with your friends, of whom you are sure they consent and are fine with it, by all means, if that's what you enjoy, but once you extend it to the greater public, for example by making these jokes loudly in public or posting them on a forum, that is a context that to me changes the dynamic.
So again, a racist, sexist joke, the punchline of which seems to be "haha rape is funny, haha, black people raping white women, that's something people think, that's funny" ... I don't see the value in that, in fact, I see the harm that these attitudes have brought to society, and that's why I suggest people don't do it, and think worse of them if they do (again, you may note that nowhere do I forbid anything, I don't have the authority to do so even if I wanted to).
And I think the right to say what you want goes both ways, if you want to make a racist joke no one is stopping you, if people then want to point out it's racist and shun you for it, that's fine too.
A dead movie forum with about twenty regulars is very different to a soapbox in Time's square. Or even a pub. It's contained within a thread, a joke thread to boot. I don't see why that is a problem. If you go into a bar that has a comedy show on, you know that it is centred around comedy. If it turns out to be some guy cracking rape jokes, leave. I would. I don't visit this thread much because I know the kind of jokes that are in here! Why not make your own "PC Jokes Thread"? Then you know the humour is going to be kosher for you. But yeah, the lone Black guy in this thread doesn't have a problem with it, so why get all White Guilt up in here? Fair enough that Kharmah was getting annoyed, it was a bunch of guys making seemingly sexist jokes. But then she blew it by saying it's fine to make racist jokes against White people. Double standards, hypocrisy, etc.
But yeah, fair enough, you can say what you want. If you want to make a racist joke no one is stopping you, if people then want to point out it's racist and shun you for it, that's fine too, and if people want to pick those people up on what they perceive to be a somewhat-arrogant überhypersuperliberal social internet justice warrior stance, then they can.
And here we are.
If you are oppressed, you aren't oppressed for being white though, are you? More likely intersections of oppression may be class, wealth, mental or physical health, etc.
Yes, it would be worse on Time Square, it's still bad here, people read it whose past and experience you don't know. And by choosing to use this as a platform you are opening yourself up to criticism, that just seems fair. People don't have to leave, they can also do the reasonable thing and complain to the management, peers or the perpetrators.
Again, like I said multiple times, it is neither a double standard nor hypocrisy to talk about the very real, very different context between jokes aimed at white people and jokes aimed at black people. They are not the same thing.
Yup, here we are, and we'll get here again when someone makes a racist joke, I point it out and you argue with it...I'm fine with that.
Originally posted by Bardock42The way I see it, we're all oppressed by the same people, and the terms 'race' 'gender' 'class' 'ability', etc. mean nothing to them. They are only racist because it backs up their power, and same for the rest. They're scapegoat terms that I think are mostly just separating us from seeing how things really are. So as far as I see, it oppression is the same across the board, it's just the methods used that differ.
If you are oppressed, you aren't oppressed for being white though, are you? More likely intersections of oppression may be class, wealth, mental or physical health, etc.Yes, it would be worse on Time Square, it's still bad here, people read it whose past and experience you don't know. And by choosing to use this as a platform you are opening yourself up to criticism, that just seems fair. People don't have to leave, they can also do the reasonable thing and complain to the management, peers or the perpetrators.
Again, like I said multiple times, it is neither a double standard nor hypocrisy to talk about the very real, very different context between jokes aimed at white people and jokes aimed at black people. They are not the same thing.
Yup, here we are, and we'll get here again when someone makes a racist joke, I point it out and you argue with it...I'm fine with that.
Well, fair enough, if you want to be the one to stop some theoretical person get offended, go for it. I don't deal in "If"'s and "But"'s, personally, it gets tiresome. I already subjugate myself that way ("what if some person thinks I'm x/y/z oh god I better dress this way I better speak this way blah blah blah"😉 in day to day life, mainly due to anxiety, and I perceive it as a bad thing. People should be responsible for their own mistakes. You seem to be more concerned about stopping people making any mistakes. Honourable, in a weird way, but in my eyes, severely misguided.
I'm fine with that, too. I actually enjoy these discussions — it's a kind of one-on-one that I know I wouldn't get in the GDF. And it keeps me on my toes and lets me figure out why I think the way I do.
Originally posted by Scribble
The way I see it, we're all oppressed by the same people, and the terms 'race' 'gender' 'class' 'ability', etc. mean nothing to them. They are only racist because it backs up their power, and same for the rest. They're scapegoat terms that I think are mostly just separating us from seeing how things really are. So as far as I see, it oppression is the same across the board, it's just the methods used that differ.Well, fair enough, if you want to be the one to stop some theoretical person get offended, go for it. I don't deal in "If"'s and "But"'s, personally, it gets tiresome. I already subjugate myself that way ("what if some person thinks I'm x/y/z oh god I better dress this way I better speak this way blah blah blah"😉 in day to day life, mainly due to anxiety, and I perceive it as a bad thing. People should be responsible for their own mistakes. You seem to be more concerned about stopping people making any mistakes. Honourable, in a weird way, but in my eyes, severely misguided.
I'm fine with that, too. I actually enjoy these discussions — it's a kind of one-on-one that I know I wouldn't get in the GDF. And it keeps me on my toes and lets me figure out why I think the way I do.
I think a view like that erases the very different experiences that certain oppressed groups have. Making it some vague enemy (I assume you mean some sort of elites, can you elaborate?) to fight against, but it is a pointless statement that will not lead to any positive change, and disregards actual reality.
Severity and methods of oppression differ significantly, and that should be discussed and addressed. I also don't think it is actually the same people. I think white people through ignorance or actively perpetrate the oppression of people of color, able bodied people those of people with mental or physical illness, etc. etc.
I don't get it, I do think helping people not making mistakes is a good goal, and if you can decrease the number of mistakes you improve the state of things over all.
Originally posted by Bardock42Sorry for the late reply, I was walking the dog.
I think a view like that erases the very different experiences that certain oppressed groups have. Making it some vague enemy (I assume you mean some sort of elites, can you elaborate?) to fight against, but it is a pointless statement that will not lead to any positive change, and disregards actual reality.Severity and methods of oppression differ significantly, and that should be discussed and addressed. I also don't think it is actually the same people. I think white people through ignorance or actively perpetrate the oppression of people of color, able bodied people those of people with mental or physical illness, etc. etc.
I don't get it, I do think helping people not making mistakes is a good goal, and if you can decrease the number of mistakes you improve the state of things over all.
It seems you're veering this discussion closer to something resembling you trying to undermine certain terms I've used, so I'm going to be brief. You're wrong in thinking it "erases the very different experiences that certain oppressed groups have." It takes them all into account and shows how maybe we're all not that different from one another. Why is wanting people to break down social barriers a bad thing? You're basically saying that because I'm misguided, my points are totally null. And you're exaggerating, too, for your own benefit.
And I'm not talking about any shadowy elite, I'm using "them" in the rhetorical sense, using it to refer to the power structure that has existed for millennia, one that serves few at the expense of many. You get that, right? I thought you knew rhetoric well enough to understand what "them" or "they" signifies in that sense.
Helping people not make mistakes is good to a degree, I just think that you have a very sure sense that every you think is the 100% fact, bona fide only true way, and you're trying to force that on other people, which I don't like. I have plenty of faults with your nannying take on human progress, in fact I find a lot of it troubling, so I'm going to fight against that because I think people have the right to **** things up once in a while. I'll put my two cents in when I can and offer my opinion, but I don't want to enforce my own personal beliefs on people because I'm not arrogant enough to assume what I think is definitely the best option.
Breaking down social barriers only works if you understand what social barriers exist. For example "Everyone should be equal" is a nice sentiment, but doesn't lead to constructive action. Similarly "All Lives Matter" almost everyone agrees with at face value, but it doesn't address the problem (i.e. that young black men are seen as disposable). So discussing what social barriers exist, and how each of them can be torn down, is an important aspect of thriving for equality.
Well, you just said it again, the power structure that serves the few...that's what "elites" means. Who are these people that the power structure serves? For example, the fact that police in the US don't stop white people as much as black people benefits white people in the US...all of them, not just a shadowy few.
How am I forcing my views on other people though? By stating them?
Obviously you think your view regarding all jokes being fine is correct, that's why you choose to stand up for it, it's no different in that way from my view and me thinking that it mine is correct.