DARTH POWER
Senior Member
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
All this time in the expanded universe and you still don't know how to argue correctly. The onus lies DIRECTLY on you DP and that is how debates work. YOU made the claim that Sidious was negatively effected by the 3 other Jedi, thus it's on your to provide evidence to support such a claim. Understand how that works? Now, what we have is... Neither the novel, nor the movie, nor lucas in his commentary EVER comment that Sidious was in anyways negatively effected by the 3 Jedi fodder. You literally have no leg to stand on other than your conjecture. As I've shown, there isn't any proof in any proof there was.
Urm no, actually since it's you whose trying to make a direct comparison between Windu's 4 on 1 fight, and Yoda's 1 on 1 fight, the Onus is on you to prove those extra 3 bits of help Windu has made no difference to the fight whatsoever.
Just the fact that they were in the fight means they effected the fight, unless you can somehow prove they didn't. Especially seen as Sidious had Windu on the defense for the first 20 seconds of the fight, if he could have devoted those first 7 seconds solely on Windu as well, then of course there's a decent chance he could have been on the winning end of the entire fight.
Not to mention the obvious fact which you keep ignoring that Sidious could have BEGAN the whole fight using his far superior Force powers, which makes the whole thing a completely different fight.
LOL The dialogue in the films, the stunt coordinator, the novel and Lucas himself all made it perfectly clear that Yoda is the most powerful opponent in combat, not Windu. So stop grasping at straws asking for evidence.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your lack of real life fighting is becoming very evident here. When you're superior to your opponent that skill will show through if you have ample time to do so. If I KO 3 guys right before I fight you... and I'm not tired nor hurt... that would've have any affect on me beating you if I'm superior. You can try and grasp at straws like.. well it could have or maybe it did... That isn't proof. In the very same novel they mention Dooku being fatigued having to battle Kenobi and Anakin... So there is proof that the writer can and will mention such things, yet there is zero mention of Sids being negatively effected AT ALL. Now, either post your proof or I'll accept your concession on the subject.
The fact that you think it's perfectly normal to KO 3 other combatants at the beginning of a fight, and not have that tire you or effect your performance in the slightest shows you've either never thrown a punch in your life, or you're just being blindly biased here.
The fact that those 3 combatants were interferring at a point when the fight was going Sidious's way is all the proof I need that the Saber fight could have gone differently without them.
Even arguing that the environment, other combatants and distractions don't effect a fight in any way shows your naivity in this area. Either that or your bias is blinding you. I'm guessing it's the second.
Again the proof that the environment and other factors effected the fight is in the result of that fight and the Yoda vs Sidious fight.
Also you need to learn a bit about how narratives work in novels. The part of the ROTS Novel which told us Dooku was tired was told from Dooku's perspective. The Mace vs Sidious fight was NOT given from Sidious's perspective.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
BTW as you should know.. .Mace Windu was the Master of the Order for a period of time not Yoda. Which I thought you might know. Clearly Yoda is more powerful in the force and obviously wiser.. but that doesn't make him a better duelist. Again, since you can't prove sidiou was negatively effected by the 3 other Jedi we are left with the invariable proof of Mace beating Sids and Yoda not beating him.
So Yoda stepping down from his duties as Master for a while make Windu a better duelist?
Yoda took charge when the Galaxy went to war- that should tell you something.
Yoda's the best all out combatant. You could argue Windu might be his equal in a pure duel, but I sure wouldn't put money on it, and most the evidence(film dialogue, Lucas's statement, EU Sources) suggests Yoda's the best in that regard as well.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You keep acting like Sids didn't use force abilities against Mace.. You should know by now he certainly did. He tried a force push on Mace which was quickly countered.. .He used force lighting on Mace as well. So stop acting like it was just a sword fight. You can't prove your case with a negative bud. That is awful debating. The whole.. oh well this person didn't do this or that... if he did he could've won. You can't prove your case with a negative. If that's how we debated EVERY SINGLE fight could be called into question and we could go.. see this person didn't do that move, and had they, they would've won. As you can see, that is a slippery slop that has no merits in a debate.
The Force Lighting he had to shoot from a position of being on his butt.
No force push was shown in the movie. One was described in the novel, and one in the script, and both have Windu barely surviving it. So just imagine how different the fight would be had he BEGAN the fight with his Far Superior Force Powers. Or fought Windu in a more open environment like he did Yoda, when unleashing his Far Superior Force Powers?
You know I'm right KT!
Yeah difference here is we're questioning something Sidious didn't do which can be directly attributed to the beginning of the fight where Sidious faced 4 Jedi!
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Mace's use of shatterpoint and Vaapad are what got him the victory. This is stated in the novel. AT NO POINT was it stated he won because of the 3 Jedi. Obviously I asked for proof above and we'll see if you produce the narration that support your theory. If not, we hve proof on why he won... because of his skills... vaapad and shatterpoint. Why try and theorize why he won when the book tells us why he won.
He won via Shatterpoint and Vapaad is just another way of saying he won via a Lightsaber duel. A duel that began with him having help, and took place in an environment which would favor Dueling over Force Powers.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Point is, Mace beat Sids and no amount of excuses or horrible debating can change that.
And no amount of extreme bias is going to change the fact that Windu had help at the beginning of the fight. He had help and an environment which did not favor Sidious's power advantages at all.
Yoda on the other hand stalemated Sidious facing him 1 VS 1 the whole fight, and had to deal with Sidious in a much more open environment and face his full Force powers unleashed.
Windu would likely have not survived that scenario.
He's no.3 after Yoda and Sidious pal. No amount of extreme bias is going to change that.