Create a strike team to kill ROTS Sidious

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Okay all of that and you FAILED to prove your case. You're the one who brought up the three jedi negatively effecting him and you failed provide ANY references in ANY medium stating it had a negative effect on him. You were the first person to bring it up and say it hurt sids... Yet you've failed to prove this case of yours. So I'll accept your concession on this point.

Again if you want to compare Windu to Yoda (who failed to defeat Sidious), then the circumstances must be equal.

The circumstances were not equal, as Yoda faced Sidious all alone from the beginning of the fight to the end. And Yoda took the full blunt of Sidious's Force powers. Windu did not.

So if you want us to believe that no, there was no difference made by the 3 Jedi and closed environment, then the onus is on you to prove that.

Especially since pretty much every source has Yoda as the most powerful and dangerous Jedi to the Sith, not Windu.

Therefore I'm the one who accepts your concession, that you can not prove the 3 Jedi and closed environment had Zero effect on the way the fight went.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again... Sids had PLENTY of time to do whatever you wanted him to do. He wasn't under constant attack... He posed and postured a few times... He could've easily launched any number of attacks. He had the time to do so, yet didn't or couldn't. Period. No amount of excuses for him not doing so matter here. He could've and didn't.. period.

In your opinion.

Fact is it wasn't a fair 1 vs 1 fight. The 3 Jedi (at the very least) prevented Sidious from going all out with his Far Superior Force powers, and forced Sidious into close quarter combat. That's the very least amount of difference they made. But chances are they also effected his Saber performance against Windu, by at least a small amount.

That's the truth of it. Windu had help. Yoda did not. No amount of excuses will change that.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So basically typed all that out and didn't offer one inkling of proof to support your case. You just BELIEVE it had a negative effect on him.. you have NO proof it did. I even showed how that very writer was very capable of showing somebody getting tired having fought multiple foes. He's aware of this factor yet failed to even mention it at all with Sidious. If he can for others.. he could've with Sids.. He didn't. Guess why? Because it wasn't a factor at all.

The proof is in the Jedi being there. Every factor effects a fight. Whether it would have been different or not without those 3 Factors is for you to prove.

If a Boxer goes 3 rounds before facing his main opponent, then that will factor into his fight with his main opponent. No proof is required there.

And the proof that Windu would lose a Majority against Sidious on his own, is right there for you to see, when the Best YODA can do is stalemate Sidious. And Yoda is a more powerful and more devastating opponent to Sidious than Windu is. Fact.

Windu is on Par with Mother Talzin, who is below Sidious.

Windu and Talzin are simply the next most Powerful Beings in the Galaxy AFTER Yoda and Sidious. But you know sometimes the No.2 guys can take a win against the No.1 guys. And that's a lot more probable when the No.2 guys begin the fight with help LOL.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
So either provide proof of what you've claimed or there's is no need to respond further.

Like I said I've proven my case. The more Powerful opponent fails to defeat Sidious on his own. Therefore the differing factors of the Windu fight MUST have made a significant difference.

I've proven my case, but you've failed to prove yours.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The book clearly explains why he wins and never, not once in ANY medium does it say because of the 3 jedi fodder or because Palps wasn't able to use his power. Not ANY place does this theory of DP ever get even implied let alone mentioned. Which is why I already accepted his concession on the matter.

Actually the book makes it clear that Yoda was the more Powerful and more Devastating Opponent against Sidious than Windu was.

That is clear proof right there.

You on the other hand have failed to provide your proof, so I'll be the one to accept your concession 👆

Yoda's not relevant in this, because the opening premise said you can't put Yoda on the Strike team.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Again if you want to compare Windu to Yoda (who failed to defeat Sidious), then the circumstances must be equal.

The circumstances were not equal, as Yoda faced Sidious all alone from the beginning of the fight to the end. And Yoda took the full blunt of Sidious's Force powers. Windu did not.

So if you want us to believe that no, there was no difference made by the 3 Jedi and closed environment, then the onus is on you to prove that.

Especially since pretty much every source has Yoda as the most powerful and dangerous Jedi to the Sith, not Windu.

Therefore I'm the one who accepts your concession, that you can not prove the 3 Jedi and closed environment had Zero effect on the way the fight went.

In your opinion.

Fact is it wasn't a fair 1 vs 1 fight. The 3 Jedi (at the very least) prevented Sidious from going all out with his Far Superior Force powers, and forced Sidious into close quarter combat. That's the very least amount of difference they made. But chances are they also effected his Saber performance against Windu, by at least a small amount.

That's the truth of it. Windu had help. Yoda did not. No amount of excuses will change that.

The proof is in the Jedi being there. Every factor effects a fight. Whether it would have been different or not without those 3 Factors is for you to prove.

If a Boxer goes 3 rounds before facing his main opponent, then that will factor into his fight with his main opponent. No proof is required there.

And the proof that Windu would lose a Majority against Sidious on his own, is right there for you to see, when the Best YODA can do is stalemate Sidious. And Yoda is a more powerful and more devastating opponent to Sidious than Windu is. Fact.

Windu is on Par with Mother Talzin, who is below Sidious.

Windu and Talzin are simply the next most Powerful Beings in the Galaxy AFTER Yoda and Sidious. But you know sometimes the No.2 guys can take a win against the No.1 guys. And that's a lot more probable when the No.2 guys begin the fight with help LOL.

Like I said I've proven my case. The more Powerful opponent fails to defeat Sidious on his own. Therefore the differing factors of the Windu fight MUST have made a significant difference.

I've proven my case, but you've failed to prove yours.

Actually the book makes it clear that Yoda was the more Powerful and more Devastating Opponent against Sidious than Windu was.

That is clear proof right there.

You on the other hand have failed to provide your proof, so I'll be the one to accept your concession 👆

I've already accepted your concession on this point. Either post the evidence or give it up already. YOU made the claim that the three jedi negatively effected Sids... NOW PROVE IT. It's not up to me to prove your case. How about this... let me ask you one question on the matter.

Is it not true, that there isn't one mention in ANY medium that the three jedi negatively effected Sids. Is this not true?

In the very same novel with the very same writer.. Did he or did he not make mention of multiple foes having a negative effect on Dooku? He's clearly aware of the potential factor yet never bothers to mention it when Mace and Sids fought correct?

You can go on and on about how Yoda didn't defeat him and how that proves your case... It doesn't, it's just another fallacy you're trying to pass off as proof. Just because Whitaker beat Julio Chavez who's better all time than McGirt... Doesn't mean McGirt can't give Whitaker a better fight. I can really tell you don't have much MMA or Boxing experience to say what you have. Styles make fights and every fight is different. Each person presents different strengths and weakness.

The writer goes out of his way to list the reasons Mace won... LUCAS HIMSELF SAYS WINDU can compete with Sids and overpowered him. Thus, Mace CAN beat Sids alone by Lucas own words. He didn't say he can compete if 3 jedi tire him out first. Nope. He said you need to be Yoda or Mace to beat Sids. PERIOD. This proves beyond any doubt Mace can beat Sids one v one. Either way, the writer goes out of his way to list the reasons mace won... Vaapad... Shatterpoint... endurance... will power etc etc. He make NO mention about the 3 jedi. Further, Yoda and Mace couldn't be further apart in skills either.

Mace uses Vaapad which is great against DS... Yoda doesn't know Vaapad and uses Ataru. This HUGE factor alone could be why mace did better, but clearly evidence slapping you in the face isn't good enough. Same with Shatterpoint.. a skill Yoda doesn't have and was useful to Mace against Sids. Do you agree these factors were mentioned as why mace won and not one mention of 3 other Jedi? Correct or no? Mace's size and and strength allowed him to hold onto his saber when Yoda couldn't. Sids blasted it out of his hand with ease. Mace took a concentrated sustained blast from Sids and never got his saber knocked out of his hand. All these difference between Yoda and Mace are why mace won. They are mentioned.. they are proof... All you have is.. .Well Yoda didn't win and Mace did.. thus something was wrong. This shows your complete lack of fighting expertise or you'd know this is a common theme.

NOW... answer my questions and either prove your case or drop it and admit you have nothing but speculation.. not one ounce of evidence is on your side.

Revan and Malak.

@KuRuPT Thanosi. It should also be noted that in an interview, Matthew Stoverstated that lucas worked very closely with him on that novel, making some changes, giving his input etc. So imo I think we can correctly assume that GL is supporting the fact that Jedi weren't tiring Sidious out. If GL had wanted to put that in, he would have.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
@KuRuPT Thanosi. It should also be noted that in an interview, Matthew Stoverstated that lucas worked very closely with him on that novel, making some changes, giving his input etc. So imo I think we can correctly assume that GL is supporting the fact that Jedi weren't tiring Sidious out. If GL had wanted to put that in, he would have.

We all know this.. I've accepted his concession on this matter until he provides any evidence.

KT you're just repeating yourself and not addressing my points at all.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
I've already accepted your concession on this point. Either post the evidence or give it up already. YOU made the claim that the three jedi negatively effected Sids... NOW PROVE IT. It's not up to me to prove your case. How about this... let me ask you one question on the matter.

I've proved it over and over again.

You're just blocking your ears saying "lalalalalalal I'm not listening."

Yoda failed to defeat Sidious. Yoda is superior to Windu in every way. He's a better duleist, he has better Tk and Force Powers, he's simply More Powerful hands down. End of.

What was the difference between Yoda's fight and Windu's fight? Well there were 3 differences- Tiin, Kolar and Fisto. Plus a 4th which was the more open environment where Sidious could unleash his full power without any issue.

If Windu fought Sidious on his own, in a more open environment like Yoda did, THEN and ONLY THEN could you make the argument that Windu was simply a better combatant to take Sidious down than Yoda was.

But No One working on Canon anywhere has suggested that. It's just your own fallacy.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Is it not true, that there isn't one mention in ANY medium that the three jedi negatively effected Sids. Is this not true?

So basically you just want to completely ignore the differing factors of both fights?

Great. Keep your fingers in your ears, and just close your eyes at the start of the Windu vs Sidious fight.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
In the very same novel with the very same writer.. Did he or did he not make mention of multiple foes having a negative effect on Dooku? He's clearly aware of the potential factor yet never bothers to mention it when Mace and Sids fought correct?

Again you're not understanding Narratives. And your lack of reading comprehension is getting irritating especially since you're attempting to use the Novel as your main source of proof.

That fight was written mainly from Dooku's perspective. We never got Sidious's perspective on either the Windu or Yoda fight.

But what the same writer did make very clear, is that YODA was the More Devastatingly Powerful Foe against Sidious than Windu was, and yet even Yoda was not capable of defeating Sidious 1 v 1.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You can go on and on about how Yoda didn't defeat him and how that proves your case... It doesn't, it's just another fallacy you're trying to pass off as proof. Just because Whitaker beat Julio Chavez who's better all time than McGirt... Doesn't mean McGirt can't give Whitaker a better fight. I can really tell you don't have much MMA or Boxing experience to say what you have. Styles make fights and every fight is different. Each person presents different strengths and weakness.

Urm excuse me, you've clearly never thrown a punch in your life if you think throwing 3 KO punches immediately prior to facing your main opponent won't effect your performance at all.

You also have no clue on fighting if you think adding 3 weaker combatants at the start of the fight isn't going to change the way you handle the fight at all.

In your analogy if Whitaker has to go a round immediately before facing McGirt, and then McGirt performed better against Whitaker than Chavez did, would that suddenly mean McGrit would perform better against Whitaker than Chavez would EVERY SINGLE TIME, based solely on the One fight, where Whitaker had to go a round immediately before the fight?

Of course not. Use some common sense.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The writer goes out of his way to list the reasons Mace won... LUCAS HIMSELF SAYS WINDU can compete with Sids and overpowered him. Thus, Mace CAN beat Sids alone by Lucas own words. He didn't say he can compete if 3 jedi tire him out first. Nope. He said you need to be Yoda or Mace to beat Sids. PERIOD. This proves beyond any doubt Mace can beat Sids one v one. Either way, the writer goes out of his way to list the reasons mace won... Vaapad... Shatterpoint... endurance... will power etc etc. He make NO mention about the 3 jedi. Further, Yoda and Mace couldn't be further apart in skills either.

Urm despite all the excuses your hiding behind- Lucas, "The Writer", Nick Gillard, EVERYONE involved in Canon has outright Stated Yoda's the No. 1 Combatant. Mace is No.2.

Therefore Mace's victory, where Yoda failed comes down to the circumstances revolving around both fights.

This isn't hard to comprehend. If you honestly think the combatant environment and other factors as big as bringing aid to the fight, doesn't effect the fight AT ALL, then you really need to brush up on your military history.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Mace uses Vaapad which is great against DS... Yoda doesn't know Vaapad and uses Ataru. This HUGE factor alone could be why mace did better, but clearly evidence slapping you in the face isn't good enough. Same with Shatterpoint.. a skill Yoda doesn't have and was useful to Mace against Sids. Do you agree these factors were mentioned as why mace won and not one mention of 3 other Jedi? Correct or no? Mace's size and and strength allowed him to hold onto his saber when Yoda couldn't. Sids blasted it out of his hand with ease. Mace took a concentrated sustained blast from Sids and never got his saber knocked out of his hand. All these difference between Yoda and Mace are why mace won. They are mentioned.. they are proof... All you have is.. .Well Yoda didn't win and Mace did.. thus something was wrong. This shows your complete lack of fighting expertise or you'd know this is a common theme.

As usual you've just put your fingers in your ears and ignored everything I've been saying.

I've already pointed out a couple MAJOR difference between Sidious shooting at Yoda and Sidious shooting at Windu.

Sidious was standing up straight and in a Proper Combat position when Shooting at Yoda. Whilst he was Lying on his ASS whilst shooting at Windu, who was in a great position to deflect the Lightning back down onto Sidious. The Script (written by Lucas himself) also makes it perfectly clear that in a scene which we don't see, Yoda DOES successfully block Sidious's Lightning with HIS SABER.

So again Please Point out to me the scene in the Windu vs Sidious fight where Sidious unleashed his FULL TK ability against Windu the way he did against Yoda. Show me the scene or I'll be the one to Accept Your Concession.

So this idea that Windu is Stronger than Yoda (with his Force enhanced strength obviously) is YOUR OWN FALLACY.

You keep talking about Vapaad and Shatterpoint and Blah Blah all mentioned in the novel and all apparently making Windu a greater threat to Sidious than Yoda. Yet you consistently ignore the Novel makes it very clear that it was YODA who was the biggest threat to Sidious NOT Windu.

Seriously you're the only one proving your complete lack of Combat expertise when you're claiming that the Context of a fight, and Environmental factors in both fights (which were very different), would have had ZERO impact on the result. You're clearly either very naive on these matters or just a fanboy blinding yourself to the truth. I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt and suspecting the second.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
NOW... answer my questions and either prove your case or drop it and admit you have nothing but speculation.. not one ounce of evidence is on your side.

I've given you a long and thorough answer, providing all the relevant Proofs.

It's now up to you to show me Sidious unleashing his full TK and Force Powers, from a proper combat position on Windu, something he clearly could have unleashed in a more open environment where he wasn't put in a 4 on 1 position to start with.

It's upto you now to provide EVIDENCE of your claim. Something you've failed to do so far.

If you can not then you might as well concede, and put your fanboyism and pride behind you for once and admit you're wrong here, and that Yoda is superior and more powerful in every way, and that Windu's win was clearly a context specific win.

Can Windu put up a Great Fight against Sidious every time? Sure. That's why Lucas said he can Compete. But can he win a Majority, when Yoda can't? Hell no.

Darth Power

Yoda failed to defeat Sidious. Yoda is superior to Windu in every way. He's a better duleist, he has better Tk and Force Powers, he's simply More Powerful hands down. End of.

Arguably muscle is something in Windu's favor, he's show more, but that'd be another thing where the limited area helped him out.

I consider Mace and Yoda equals. Yoda is more powerful but he's got physical limitations, while Windu doesn't, so it kind of evens things out. Yoda can absorb lightning bare handed but that's more to do with having a unique talent rather than being more powerful.

Originally posted by Fated Xtasy
@KuRuPT Thanosi. It should also be noted that in an interview, Matthew Stoverstated that lucas worked very closely with him on that novel, making some changes, giving his input etc. So imo I think we can correctly assume that GL is supporting the fact that Jedi weren't tiring Sidious out. If GL had wanted to put that in, he would have.

Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
We all know this.. I've accepted his concession on this matter until he provides any evidence.

1. I never claimed those 3 combatants clearly TREMENDOUSLY TIRED Sidious. My argument that they MAY HAVE SLIGHTLY Tired him, was superfluous to the Main Point which was they Forced Sidious into Close-Quarter combat with Windu, denying him the Option of going all Out with his much greater Force Powers. It was not only those 3 combatants which restricted that but probably also the more closed environment than the one Sidious faced Yoda in.

2. The Novel actually does make it clear it took some time for Windu to fully sink into Vapaad, and the other combatants seemed to have lasted longer in the novel. So the novel certainly does suggest that those 3 combatants made a difference.

3. The Novel makes it more than clear that Yoda was the greater threat to Sidious (in combat) than Windu or any other Jedi were.

4. And all this was explained without even getting Sidious's perspective on both fights. So you both still don't seem to understand how Narratives work.

5. And finally, but probably most importantly, that's lame reasoning in any case, that "Lucas could have requested an addition there, so why didn't he". Probably because Lucas was more concerned with the narrative of the story than "Who beats who in a fight!!!" For someone accusing me of speculating KT, you sure are bringing A LOT of speculation to your own argument.

Originally posted by Q99
Arguably muscle is something in Windu's favor, he's show more, but that'd be another thing where the limited area helped him out.

True say.

Originally posted by Arhael
I consider Mace and Yoda equals. Yoda is more powerful but he's got physical limitations, while Windu doesn't, so it kind of evens things out. Yoda can absorb lightning bare handed but that's more to do with having a unique talent rather than being more powerful.

Well Nick Gillard called Windu no.2 in combat after Yoda, and the novel describes Yoda as "The Most Devastatingly Powerful Foe the Darkness has ever faced". Plus Lucas said before AOTC in an interview in the Official SW magazine(UK) that we'll see Yoda fight and find out the real reason he's called "THE MASTER"- clearly referring to his combat prowess over the other Jedi.

So I still think Yoda is overall more Powerful. He's Sidious equal, whilst Windu seems to be Talzin's equal.

The power level in the Galaxy at that time period seems to be:

1. Sidious/Yoda

2. Windu/Talzin

3. Up for debate

^ I'm not referring to Sabers only here, or Force only. Just overall Power applicable in combat.

Now of course sometimes No.2 can beat No.1, especially under slightly more favorable circumstances, just as it's possible for Windu or Tazlin to get defeated by the next most powerful, especially under the right circumstances.

But in any case I'm sure We with sane minds can all agree the context of the Windu/Sidious fight was very different to the context of the Yoda/Sidious battle.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
True say.

Well Nick Gillard called Windu no.2 in combat after Yoda, and the novel describes Yoda as "The Most Devastatingly Powerful Foe the Darkness has ever faced". Plus Lucas said before AOTC in an interview in the Official SW magazine(UK) that we'll see Yoda fight and find out the real reason he's called "THE MASTER"- clearly referring to his combat prowess over the other Jedi.

So I still think Yoda is overall more Powerful. He's Sidious equal, whilst Windu seems to be Talzin's equal.

The power level in the Galaxy at that time period seems to be:

1. Sidious/Yoda

2. Windu/Talzin

3. Up for debate

^ I'm not referring to Sabers only here, or Force only. Just overall Power applicable in combat.

Now of course sometimes No.2 can beat No.1, especially under slightly more favorable circumstances, just as it's possible for Windu or Tazlin to get defeated by the next most powerful, especially under the right circumstances.

But in any case I'm sure We with sane minds can all agree the context of the Windu/Sidious fight was very different to the context of the Yoda/Sidious battle.

That statement of Gillard was made in reference to AotC. At that time Windu was pretty much just a badass chracter to be plaid by Samuel L. Jackson and I doubt Lucas yet considered Windu beating Sidious.

Yes, circumstances of both fights were very different, which makes it impossible to determine whether Yoda or Windu is better. Yoda is more powerful than Windu but that doesn't make him better combatant as power is far from the only factor.

Originally posted by Arhael
That statement of Gillard was made in reference to AotC. At that time Windu was pretty much just a badass chracter to be plaid by Samuel L. Jackson and I doubt Lucas yet considered Windu beating Sidious.

Yes it was made for AOTC. And they also suggest in the film that Yoda is the Order's best swordsman, and not just Force user "If you practiced your Saber skills as much as you did your Wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a Swordsman."

The real reason Windu beat Sidious was simply because Sam L Jackson asked for an epic death, to go out like a complete bad ass. But I seriously doubt they completely changed Windu's combat prowess based solely on that, which is why they had a very different context based situation around Windu's fight against Sidious compared to Yoda's.

But Windu was always said to be No.2, so he was always going to be some kind of threat to Sidious Imho.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yes, circumstances of both fights were very different, which makes it impossible to determine whether Yoda or Windu is better. Yoda is more powerful than Windu but that doesn't make him better combatant as power is far from the only factor.

I mean it's not just pre-Rots sources that have Yoda as no.1 and Windu no.2 in combat.

In TCW Filoni always said how they wanted to have more Yoda episodes but it was so difficult because Yoda can just kick everyone's butt. Yet he never mentions or even hints having the same problem with Windu.

TCW also depicted Windu and Talzin as peers, whilst Sidious was =/> Talzin even on her own personal nexus.

Plus there's the ROTS novel itself which states that Yoda was "The Most Devastatingly Powerful Foe the Darkness has ever faced."

In other words Yoda was the more dangerous threat to Sidious in combat. More dangerous than even Windu was. Yet he just could not defeat Sidious.

So yeah, pretty much every major source and canon authority had Yoda above Windu in combat related abilities. And I've yet to here any of those guys say that Windu is Yoda's equal now.

Originally posted by Arhael
Yoda is more powerful than Windu but that doesn't make him better combatant as power is far from the only factor.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Marco1907
Agreed.

The only time I've heard anyone involved in Canon call Windu Yoda's equal in combat, is Nick Gillard rating the Saber levels.

But even then, Windu is on Yoda's level, not above him, and that's just pure Sabers. Factor in Force Powers like Tk, and Yoda has to be above Windu.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
The only time I've heard anyone involved in Canon call Windu Yoda's equal in combat, is Nick Gillard rating the Saber levels.

But even then, Windu is on Yoda's level, not above him, and that's just pure Sabers. Factor in Force Powers like Tk, and Yoda has to be above Windu.

You forgot force combat and shatterpoint.

Had Yoda and Windu faced each other, scenario would be pretty much the same as with Yoda vs Dooku. Either Windu runs away or Yoda tires him out and eventually overwhelms him.

Against Sidious it's different.
Yoda's tactic is pretty much attack as fast as possible and try to overwhelm opponent. Due to physical limitations he can't execute disarming moves like other characters and has to rely solely on his agility. Based on that I believe Windu has better chance to win saber fight against Sidious. Equally Windu might get outskilled by Sidious, while Yoda is too small and agile for regular lightsaber techniques to work against him.

Overall, Windu has a chance to win saber fight and without lightsaber he is pretty much fodder. I don't see Yoda being able to outskill Sidious in sabers, he can't tire Sidious out like he can Dooku. And if it comes to Force fight Yoda can't win either as he will get tired as fast or faster.

That's my opinion on this.

Originally posted by Arhael

That's my opinion on this.

Fair enough. Although bear in mind as per the script Yoda did actually disarm Sidious. I know you say that was context specific, but point is he disarmed him yet still couldn't kill Sidious in that environment under those circumstances where Sidious was able to unleash the full brunt of his Force Powers.

Which is why I say if Windu fought Sidious in such an open environment, 1 on 1 from the beginning (no messing with Fodder Jedi), then Windu would almost certainly lose the vast majority of fights.

Whilst Yoda and Sidious are likely to stalemate each other more often than not.

Can Windu beat Sidious in Sabers? Sure, it already happened. And that certainly gives him a shot at winning the All-Out scenario. Force Sidious to fight close quarter combat in a fairly closed environment (also like what happened), then Mace's shot at winning will suddenly become a more or less even split.

So that's my personal opinion on the subject.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Fair enough. Although bear in mind as per the script Yoda did actually disarm Sidious. I know you say that was context specific, but point is he disarmed him yet still couldn't kill Sidious in that environment under those circumstances where Sidious was able to unleash the full brunt of his Force Powers.

Regardless, I never disagreed that Sidious will win majority against Windu. In fact for me Sidious wins majority against both. I consider stalemate between Yoda and Sidious as victory for Sidious because tired Yoda becomes frail helpless midget, while Sidous is still a large human with vast physical advantages.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
KT you're just repeating yourself and not addressing my points at all.

I've proved it over and over again.

You're just blocking your ears saying "lalalalalalal I'm not listening."

Yoda failed to defeat Sidious. Yoda is superior to Windu in every way. He's a better duleist, he has better Tk and Force Powers, he's simply More Powerful hands down. End of.

What was the difference between Yoda's fight and Windu's fight? Well there were 3 differences- Tiin, Kolar and Fisto. Plus a 4th which was the more open environment where Sidious could unleash his full power without any issue.

If Windu fought Sidious on his own, in a more open environment like Yoda did, THEN and ONLY THEN could you make the argument that Windu was simply a better combatant to take Sidious down than Yoda was.

But No One working on Canon anywhere has suggested that. It's just your own fallacy.

So basically you just want to completely ignore the differing factors of both fights?

Great. Keep your fingers in your ears, and just close your eyes at the start of the Windu vs Sidious fight.

Again you're not understanding Narratives. And your lack of reading comprehension is getting irritating especially since you're attempting to use the Novel as your main source of proof.

That fight was written mainly from Dooku's perspective. We never got Sidious's perspective on either the Windu or Yoda fight.

But what the same writer did make very clear, is that YODA was the More Devastatingly Powerful Foe against Sidious than Windu was, and yet even Yoda was not capable of defeating Sidious 1 v 1.

Urm excuse me, you've clearly never thrown a punch in your life if you think throwing 3 KO punches immediately prior to facing your main opponent won't effect your performance at all.

You also have no clue on fighting if you think adding 3 weaker combatants at the start of the fight isn't going to change the way you handle the fight at all.

In your analogy if Whitaker has to go a round immediately before facing McGirt, and then McGirt performed better against Whitaker than Chavez did, would that suddenly mean McGrit would perform better against Whitaker than Chavez would EVERY SINGLE TIME, based solely on the One fight, where Whitaker had to go a round immediately before the fight?

Of course not. Use some common sense.

Urm despite all the excuses your hiding behind- Lucas, "The Writer", Nick Gillard, EVERYONE involved in Canon has outright Stated Yoda's the No. 1 Combatant. Mace is No.2.

Therefore Mace's victory, where Yoda failed comes down to the circumstances revolving around both fights.

This isn't hard to comprehend. If you honestly think the combatant environment and other factors as big as bringing aid to the fight, doesn't effect the fight AT ALL, then you really need to brush up on your military history.

As usual you've just put your fingers in your ears and ignored everything I've been saying.

I've already pointed out a couple MAJOR difference between Sidious shooting at Yoda and Sidious shooting at Windu.

Sidious was standing up straight and in a Proper Combat position when Shooting at Yoda. Whilst he was Lying on his ASS whilst shooting at Windu, who was in a great position to deflect the Lightning back down onto Sidious. The Script (written by Lucas himself) also makes it perfectly clear that in a scene which we don't see, Yoda DOES successfully block Sidious's Lightning with HIS SABER.

So again Please Point out to me the scene in the Windu vs Sidious fight where Sidious unleashed his FULL TK ability against Windu the way he did against Yoda. Show me the scene or I'll be the one to Accept Your Concession.

So this idea that Windu is Stronger than Yoda (with his Force enhanced strength obviously) is YOUR OWN FALLACY.

You keep talking about Vapaad and Shatterpoint and Blah Blah all mentioned in the novel and all apparently making Windu a greater threat to Sidious than Yoda. Yet you consistently ignore the Novel makes it very clear that it was YODA who was the biggest threat to Sidious NOT Windu.

Seriously you're the only one proving your complete lack of Combat expertise when you're claiming that the Context of a fight, and Environmental factors in both fights (which were very different), would have had ZERO impact on the result. You're clearly either very naive on these matters or just a fanboy blinding yourself to the truth. I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt and suspecting the second.

I've given you a long and thorough answer, providing all the relevant Proofs.

It's now up to you to show me Sidious unleashing his full TK and Force Powers, from a proper combat position on Windu, something he clearly could have unleashed in a more open environment where he wasn't put in a 4 on 1 position to start with.

It's upto you now to provide EVIDENCE of your claim. Something you've failed to do so far.

If you can not then you might as well concede, and put your fanboyism and pride behind you for once and admit you're wrong here, and that Yoda is superior and more powerful in every way, and that Windu's win was clearly a context specific win.

Can Windu put up a Great Fight against Sidious every time? Sure. That's why Lucas said he can Compete. But can he win a Majority, when Yoda can't? Hell no.

You have not provided ONE bit of evidence to support your claim. NOT ONE. This is what you call proof...

Saying the circumstances were different for both fights... DUH!!! That is pretty much true for every single fight in the entire mythos. That isn't proof of anything at all. Like literally nothing at all

You say Sids was enclosed in a limited space and this prevented him from doing stuff. Again POST WHERE THIS IS MENTIONED AS A NEGATIVE FACTOR AGAINST SIDS. Either post the proof of concede you're only speculating that it could've effected him since you've conceded that this is never EVER mentioned as being a negative factor for sids. To further disprove this claim.. We see Sids able to fight both Yoda and mace in close quarters combat. We see Sids about to use lighting while close against both windu and yoda. So this whole ohhh he couldn't do all this stuff is a complete load of crap. Not to mention even saying a fighter didn't do this or that isn't proof of anything. I've already proved that a fighter not doing something can never be used as proof he'd win if he had. That is the worst kind of evidence providing and exactly what you're doing here.

You next proof is the narration that Yoda is the greatest foe the DS has ever known. SO? That ISN'T PROOF. For God's sake do you even know what proof is? STYLE MAKE FIGHTS.. Just because Sonnen had lost to VASTLY inferior people to Anderson Silva.. and is vastly inferior to Silva in an overall all time ranking... DOESN'T MEAN HE COULDN'T GIVE SILVA A FIGHT. He did exactly that. I referenced Whitaker/Chavez/Mcgirt.. If you'd like I could list 20 other examples of one guy being better all time and better in more areas but doing worse against somebody that's worse in most areas. Would you like me to? Silva is called the greatest MW ever... SO does that mean he can't be beaten by a certain style? NO he can and has been. Which exactly the point you seem to be missing. This is UNQUESTIONABLY proved by the below

Mace abilities of VAAPAD and SHATTERPOINT were SPECIFICALLY mentioned by the writer as why he was able to win. Those are abilities he has that Yoda doesn't. You don't think those could've been the reasons he was able to win? Not even a chance that's why? So we have those mentioned (why the proof is on my side) on yours we have...

1. Sidious was tired from the Jedi (NEVER MENTIONED AT ANY POINT
2. Sidious was in a confined area and thus it restricted him (NEVER ONCE MENTIONED AT ANY POINT ANYWHERE)

Every reason you list why Sidious was negatively effected isn't MENTIONED BY ANYBODY AT ANYTIME. If you have ANY place these are mentioned post it. If not, you'll have to concede you're only speculating and there is zero proof to support such a claim.

not only are humans VASTLY difference than Jedi or sith in abilities and powers.. Both can replenish themselves and stamina with the force. So fatigue is not an issue nor the same as with humans. However, even as humans... How does me KOing 3 guys with 3 punches negatively effect me? Unless it hurts my hand.. or unless I get hit while KOing one of them.. or unless I get tired. What big factor could it be? It isn't enough to say.. ohhh I could've gone all out against the first guy right from the jump if I didn't have to KO the other three. That is a WEAK argument because it's easily countered by having ample time for my skill to still come through. Sure I could've KO'd him earlier maybe... but once my full attention is to my foe... and I have plenty of time.. My skill and power will either show through or it wouldn't. Simple. If I lost to the last guy and wasn't hurt.. or tired and had plenty of time to win.. I would probably just say he's the better fighter.

I've addressed all your points... NOW, either provide proof or concede YOU'RE only speculating. I've addressed each of your so called proof and shown that it's not back up by any single thing in the movie or the book. NOT only place is ANY of the evidence you're claiming mentioned. The only thing mentioned is the greatest foe thing.. and I've easily dispatched that as any kind of proof of anything with real life examples.