Originally posted by ares834
Dues ex machina refers to the machine (typically a crane) that a god uses to descend to help the hero although in this case it's film projector (or whatever the use now days) rather than a crane but I digress.
Originally posted by Galan007
It is the very definition of a dues ex machina plot device.
From Merriam Webster
a person or thing (as in fiction or drama) that appears or is introduced suddenly and unexpectedly and provides a contrived solution to an apparently insoluble difficulty
Underlining the parts that seem problematic to you guys. Whis has the ability to travel back in time and fix a mistake, AKA a reset button. Had this not been mentioned until Freeza blowing up the planet then yes this would absolutely be a Deus Ex Machina. But it wasn't. Whis explains this power early on in the story which is a signal to the audience that the power will come into play later into the film.
Now here is what Chekov explaining his gun:
Remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. If it's not going to be fired, it shouldn't be hanging there.
Now you can say I'm arguing semantics and maybe I am but the point is that what Toriyama wrote was a Chekov's Gun, not a Deus Ex Machina.
Originally posted by ares834
The problem isn't that there is a deus ex machina, but the fact that it's so instrumental in the conclusion. Even worse is what the power is and does. It's a reset button which, unless the plot revolves around it, is such a hamfisted plot device.
Of course, because there isn't one. There have been plenty of Deus ex Machina in Dragonball, the most glaring probably being the Potara earrings.
I have problems with what Whis does as well but I will go into detail on that later.
Originally posted by Galan007
When you compare max power to max power, Freeza was never a real threat to either of them one-on-one. He was nothing... Again. Not saying his golden form wasn't uber-powerful; it certainly was. It is especially amazing that he attained such a high level of power in a scant 4 months--just imagine if he wouldn't have been so arrogant and spent, maybe, a year training. Anywho, we can what-if this to death, but Goku/Vegeta were still far more powerful than Freeza in the end... Which is a real shame. Tbh, I thought he was going to legitimately beat them in this film. Alas...
This is nothing new for Dragonball. Freeza was never a threat to Goku who could have ripped him apart the minute he went Super Saiyain(the fight was way cooler before he could do that imo). Cell was not a threat to Gohan or Vegeta but because both were arrogant and thus the world was put in danger again. Kid Buu would have lost much earlier had Goku and Vegeta fused but they didn't so Buu almost wins.
Mind you we haven't seen the film so we have no idea how close the fights are other than Vegeta mostly winning the second fight. That isn't unreasonable since Vegeta is starting mostly fresh whereas Freeza was exhausted from Goku. The film doesn't make it a secret that if Goku and Vegeta worked together that Freeza but the same could be said for Buu lol. And it is unfair to say Freeza was never a threat considering he, y'know, won. He would have killed Goku if Vegeta hadn't stepped in and he did kill Vegeta before Goku went back in time.
There is also few alternatives. If Freeza is massively more powerful than Goku and Vegeta than the plot can only go a few ways.
1. Beerus or Whis kills him which is underwhelming because the fans are here to see Goku beat him(in Japan I'd bet money that this is certainly the case).
2. He is stronger than both Vegeta and Goku but working together they can beat him, like the Androids against Future Gohan. This is probably the one most people would be accepting of, myself included, but there are problems with it. Freeza being that powerful in such a short amount of time is still very silly and it is more in character for Freeza to just kill one of them to prevent that from happening.
3. They fuse. Been done already.
I really can't think of another option but I'm sure someone could.
Mind you all of this is pointless until we see the film itself and how everything plays out. It seems to me that the main problem with this flick is that people are assuming the conflict is between Freeza and the heroes. From the synopsis it seems to me the conflict is between Goku and Vegeta not working together to fix a problem and the whole world suffering for it. This being Dragonball Z there are naturally no lasting consequences to this problem but Goku and Vegeta learn their lessons in the end anyway. Goku needs to stop being playful and take things more seriously and Vegeta needs to rely on others more than he does.
I do smell problems with the film though. Vegeta just having the God Mode as a given now undermines the specialness of it from the last film and Freeza getting that strong in a scant 4 months is dumb. My biggest gripe with the ending isn't that there is something the hero does that negates the consequences(the Dragonballs have done this for years) but how it'll be executed. See the Potara being important or the changes to Porunga's abilities are clunky deus ex machina but we don't really think much of them because they are introduced quickly and come into play when the tension is super high. If Goku doesn't fuse with Gohan fast, the whole world is boned. If Porunga doesn't hurry up and bring Earth back then Buu will win. The pacing forces you to accept it. Here though the Earth is already gone and Freeza seems to be dead as well. It comes across as "hurry we have to go back in time before it is too late!" and more "I'll need to get around to going back in time at some point." Goku could have just as easily gone to Namek and used Porunga to bring everyone back again.
On the other hand Toriyama is probably betting that the emotional weight of the scene will carry it. This is wrong, the heroes are supposed to win! Freeza cheated! Goku lost everything he loved but didn't deserve something so harsh! Oh wait yeah! Whis can go back in time! Hurry Goku, stop Freeza! You only have 3 minutes!
Time will tell. I'm not saying you guys are wrong to feel the way you feel about the ending. But from where I sit it is perfectly in line with how Dragonball tends to work. Not planning on saying anymore on the subject.