Darth Vader vs Darth Maul [The Debate Center]

Started by DarthAnt665 pages

Darth Vader vs Darth Maul [The Debate Center]

Darth Vader from Return of the Jedi versus Darth Maul from Son of Dathomir.
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We can't ****ing swear in a negative mother****ing way?

Vader wins in a hard fight due to comparable dueling ability but substantially better, though not totally overwhelming, command of the Force.

''Any quotes for George Lucas, Dave Filoni, and the like is banned.''

???

Originally posted by Marco1907
''Any quotes for George Lucas, Dave Filoni, and the like is banned.''

???


Here is an example:
"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely
powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and
became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot
of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form,
there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good
as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than
the Emperor. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this
really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that,
with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the
Dark Side. You'll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same
issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with.
Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

I am waiting for RotJ Vader feats, frankly I don't see any big difference between even Purge & RotJ, maybe because RotJ Vader is featless, but then he lost to an inexperienced duelist Luke. At best, ANH Vader and RotJ Vader shouldn't be that different.

I am accepting that Vader is powerful, but I am not accepting his power-up claims.

Originally posted by Marco1907
At best, ANH Vader and RotJ Vader shouldn't be that different.

EDIT: And here is proof that Darth Vader from ROTJ is tougher then ESB:
"Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power, it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground...but he would wait. For his Emperor was not ready; and his son was not ready, and the time was not yet. So he waited." --Star Wars: Return of the Jedi

How powerful do you think ESB Luke is ? Vader had hard time to bring him down completely, iirc, Luke even hit him once on his shoulder.

Then, he loses to Luke in RotJ, this means Luke is incredibly powerful or Vader grown very minimal. My choice is second. Because Luke was inexperienced and I don't believe he is better duelist than the likes of RotS Obi-Wan at that time being.

And there is another problem, his speed. Vader had never been fast, the reason Luke bested him in RotJ should be speed difference, because I don't believe that Luke is more skilled or stronger than Vader by RotJ.

By Lucas's explanation and starwars. com, RotJ Vader shouldn't be fast as prime Jedi and Sith, that is why Luke was able to defeat him imho.

Originally posted by Marco1907
By Lucas's explanation and starwars. com, RotJ Vader shouldn't be fast as prime Jedi and Sith, that is why Luke was able to defeat him imho.

Remember, Lucas and starwars.com quotes are banned from this.

RotJ Vader shouldn't be fast as prime Jedi and Sith, that is why Luke was able to defeat him imho.

He was far too fast for the likes of Aurra Sing, who's dueled several big-names from the PT, like Qui-Gon or Ayala Secura.

ANH and RotJ Vader are the same in many ways--The only major difference is the improvement of his lightsaber skills. It's a fact that Vader reached the height of his power in RotJ, though.

I'm thinking Maul could possibly edge Vader out in sabers on a good day but Vader would molest Maul with the Force. So Vader wins, imo.

Both Maul and Vader are very talented offensive duelists, but as far as defense goes, I think Vader has both the superior technique, and the superior ability to tank blows and injury. As far as the force is concerned, Vader's telekinetic prowess impresses me more than Maul's.

I think Vader would win this fight.

And here's my analysises of both of their fighting styles from my Interesting Fighting Styles thread if anyone is interested:

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Well now... time to do one for Darth Vader. Darth Vader's primary form, even before gaining the suit, was Djem So, which he had taken to the level of mastery. After sustaining the injuries on mustafar and donning his trademark suit his fighting style changed dramatically. He initially began to fight with a brutish method, employing a clumsy application of Djem So that incorporated elements of Ataru and Soresu, but was really no more than a brutish onslaught.

Eventually Vader learned to fight with his armor, completely retooling his fighting style to fit his strengths and weaknesses, and incorporating elements from the other six forms around the core of his fighting style, Djem So. Djem So works perfectly as the core of Vader's fighting technique. Its strength oriented offense allows him to use his cybernetically augmented strength as well as the weight of his armor for devastating power blows, it's grounded nature suits Vader's relative lack of mobility in combat, the emphasis on footwork is supported by Vader's bulky weight providing him with a stable center of balance, and it's emphasis on parrying and immediate counter response suiting Vader's need to both defend the weaknesses of his armor and press all of his advantages to bear against his enemies.

Djem So's dueling centric focus also serves as a good basis to incorporate elements of other forms into. The first forms Vader borrowed elements from were Soresu and Ataru. Vader's usage of Soresu was known to involve keeping his elbows to his chest and using his wrists for the precision necessary to ward off blows targeting his face and chest, the most vulnerable parts of his suit, ensuring that if a blow did hit, it could likely be tanked by the rest of his armor. His application of Ataru into his fighting style was likely at first a feeble attempt to regain some of his old agility, and after learning to fight with his armor he actually somewhat succeeds in this goal. He doesn't regain an extraordinary level of agility, but he does gain enough agility to be competent in this regard. Like Qui-gon and ANH Obi-wan, he appears to utilize a more grounded version of Ataru that focuses more around elaborate movement rather than elaborate acrobatics.

The next styles Vader was known to incorporate into his fighting technique were Makashi and Juyo. Makashi's place in Vader's technique led to more control over his technique, which in turn was instrumental in the transformation from a clumsy brutish method to a more advanced and precise method. The elegance and precision granted to him by Makashi was a nice compliment to his brute force. This allowed him to strike with great strength, but at the same time, precisely hit his target, which ranges anywhere from off-balancing or disarming someone with a single stroke to cleaving them in half. Juyo was also a significant boon in overcoming his weaknesses. The passion that Juyo draws from would allow Vader to draw from the dark side to overcome some of his physical limitations. Juyo also provided the, at first slow and clumsy Vader, with a fast paced unpredictable offensive.

With Djem So as the core of Vader's technique and Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, and Juyo being supplementary fighting techniques, Shii Cho and Niman are what holds it all together. Shi Cho was instrumental in the retooling of Vader's style as he basically had to work from the ground up. The simplicity of Shii Cho allowed Vader to use it as a basis for more advanced techniques later on, effectively building off of it to incorporate other styles into his technique. Niman on the other hand was what allowed Vader to hold the elements of all of these styles together as well as allowing him to easily transition between the forms in his fighting style.

What makes Vader different from other wielders of all Seven forms is that rather than mastering them all individually, he primarily focused on one style and supplemented his skill in that style with elements from other styles, effectively building around the form he has mastered, with elements from the other forms, and the way he does this works perfectly to cover up his weaknesses and take full advantage of his strengths. For these reasons, I judge Darth Vader's fighting style to be unique, resourceful, and effective.


Originally posted by Emperordmb
Darth Maul is also a quite interesting fighter as he focuses primarily on lightsaber technique over force abilities and dun moch...

The primary component of Darth Maul's lightsaber technique is Juyo, which is what provides Maul with his offensive technique as a duelist. Juyo is known for its unpredictability, which plays off of the unfamiliar nature of Maul's double bladed lightsaber quite nicely. Juyo is also known for it's fast paced and aggressive offensive, which also plays well off of Maul's double bladed lightsaber given that he can strike with two blades more frequently than he could with one. Maul however was not dependent on his double bladed lightsaber and could still function with a single blade. When applying Juyo with a single bladed lightsaber Maul compensated for his double bladed lightsaber's greater striking speed and his opponents' unfamiliarity with it, with the greater maneuverability provided by a single bladed lightsaber.

Maul supplements his offensive dueling capabilities with the aggressive martial art known as Teras Kasi. Teras Kasi is perhaps the most effective martial art for a Sith to compliment their dueling skills with considering that it was developed and geared for fighting Jedi, exactly the kind of opponent a Sith Lord like Maul would face in a lightsaber duel. Maul's mastery of Teras Kasi is to the extent that his master considers his body as lethal as his lightsaber blade, and it is very prevalent in his fighting style. Given how busy Maul's hands are in combat he more frequently utilizes kicks in combat to the extent where he's thrown at least 6-7 kicks in half of his on-screen fights, once to the extent where it was actually lethal to a Jedi, and another time actually managing to land a blow on Sidious. Maul's intense and brutal physical training at the hands of Sidious was instrumental in specializing his body for such attacks, though after losing his legs, the new cybernetic legs he receives makes his frequent habit of throwing kicks in a lightsaber duel all the more effective.

With Maul's mastery of Juyo and Teras Kasi he is a very offensive fighter, and as such he'd be considerably less comfortable on the defensive. Nevertheless Maul does maintain a capable defense in his dueling repertoire. It is likely that much of Maul's defensive technique is derived from his skill in Niman. Niman's balanced jack-of-all-trades nature provides Maul with no weaknesses for his opponents to exploit against him. Niman as a jack-of-all-trades style also provided Maul with some insight into the other forms, allowing him to more capably respond to them in combat. His defensive technique was also well served by his double bladed lightsaber, given the defensive coverage provided by two blades. Unlike his offensive technique, I do not believe he ever truly compensated for the loss of his double bladed weapon in this regard. Given how undeveloped his defensive technique was in comparison to his offensive technique, Maul would also utilize aggressive moves and maneuvers derived from Juyo and Teras Kasi in his defensive technique to keep his opponents at a safe distance while also keeping his opponents from closing in by creating distance with the acrobatics of Teras Kasi. As such Maul's defensive technique is mainly comprised of not presenting a weakness, while maintaining a reasonable distance with aggressive techniques and acrobatics.

Then we get to Maul's mastery of Jar'kai which impacts his fighting style in a few different ways, pretty much all of which are related to armament. First of all, he likely got to Jar'kai through the stepping stone of Niman, which he then used to attain mastery of the double bladed lightsaber. The second and more obvious impact is his skill in dual wielding. When wielding two lightsabers, he further increases his effectiveness with Juyo, as it provides him with the striking speed of two blades without the movement hindrance of the double bladed lightsaber, also increasing his options in combat, and thus his unpredictability as well.

Darth Maul was essentially Sidious's weapon and his skillset reflects that. He is specialized for offense, maintaining combat expertise in several weapons through Jar'kai, a fast paced offensive through Juyo, knowledge of other forms through Niman, skill in hand to hand combat through Teras Kasi, and a defense that utilized minimization of weakness and aggressive techniques to keep his opponents at a distance to compensate for his relative lack of defensive techniques. Maul was brutal and aggressive, but as a result of his vast array of techniques he was also versatile and thus unpredictable, a two edged sword if you will (full pun intended). For these reasons I judge Darth Maul's fighting style to be unique, resourceful, and effective.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

ANH and RotJ Vader are the same in many ways--The only major difference is the improvement of his lightsaber skills. It's a fact that Vader reached the height of his power in RotJ, though.

Well, I would accept lightsaber skill improvement. But I don't believe he has grown more powerful in the force, because he was already powerful in Purge, nor his speed, his best speed feats happened in the novels and comic books at the Purge era. Durability and strength is already stabile for him due to his cybernetic limbs. He can't make it better or lesser. Only difference would be skill, and that makes sense.

Originally posted by Dionysus
I'm thinking Maul could possibly edge Vader out in sabers on a good day but Vader would molest Maul with the Force. So Vader wins, imo.

Nah, Maul is not helpless at TK, he even force pushed Palpatine, which is better than anything Vader did.

Even if we ignore that feat, Maul has enough TK feats to suggests that he can protect his force shield, which means this is a lightsaber duel only.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Both Maul and Vader are very talented offensive duelists, but as far as defense goes, I think Vader has both the superior technique, and the superior ability to tank blows and injury. As far as the force is concerned, Vader's telekinetic prowess impresses me more than Maul's.
Maul's defensive technique/strategy is pretty solid IMO, at least on par with Vader's, in that he backs off of his attacker until he can get them to a location where they are least likely to pose a threat, like he did when fighting Jinn/Vader. And he makes use of acrobatics more than blocking to avoid blows, which is an equally viable defensive technique in my mind, perhaps more so since the opponent is using up more energy by missing.

You also forgot to mention a few things which are fairly important on Maul's end IMO, such as his tactical skill, martial advantage, and that his agility should be problematic for Vader.

Other than that I pretty much agree, Vader wins.

Vader, with difficulty.

Maul's probably the superior swordsman: a confirmed high-end master of multiple forms whereas Vader 'only' borrows elements of all seven {which is still pretty impressive, but probably doesn't require strict mastery}.

As a Force adept, Vader has the advantage with respect to feats and accolades and so I'm inclined to give him the advantage in at least 6 rounds out of 10.

Since when does mastery of forms equate to feats and accolades when it comes to the high tiers? Surely you don't think Drallig or Sora more skilled than Obi-Wan.

Sasukedc, come to The Outcasts.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
Both Maul and Vader are very talented offensive duelists, but as far as defense goes, I think Vader has both the superior technique,

Nah Maul's defensive technique is exceptional. Not only does he adequately defend against 2 Ataru experts in TPM, but TCW Maul often fights defensively and to a very high degree. He displayed this when he easily parried off Opress' s tremendously strong blows 1 handed with casual ease.

Like Tempest pointed out Maul's a High end Master of multiple forms. So going by the few times he's fought defensively in TCW (even against Pre-Vizsla) my guess would be 1 of those forms he's completely mastered is either Makashi or Soresu. Given he tends to defend 1 handed, my guess would be Makashi. Plus given that Sith train to duel Jedi, Makashi seems to fit best.

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
Nah Maul's defensive technique is exceptional.

👆

Qui-Gon pressed hard in the beginning, sensing how dangerous this man was, wanting to put an end to the combat quickly. Long hair flying out behind him, he attacked with ferocity and determination. Obi-Wan came with him, following his lead. They had fought together before, and they knew each other's moves. Qui-Gon had trained Obi-Wan, and while the younger Jedi was not yet his equal, he believed that one day Obi - Wan would be better than he had ever been. So they challenged the Sith Lord quickly, and just as quickly I discovered that their best efforts were not good enough to achieve an early resolution. They settled into a pattern then, working as a team against their enemy, waiting for an opening. But the Sith Lord was too smart to give them one, and so the battle had gone on.

---Source : The Phantom Menace Novelization

Vader-sama takes this. His TK is too much and he mastered all 7 forms and made a unique Saber form from it.