Originally posted by ILS
So why is it that Maul's agility and acrobatics are made to sound nigh-redundant in your evaluation, yet any trait Vader may possess such as "precision" and "unpredictability" (two qualities Maul evidently shares) are to be so important? Agility is just as important as Vader's strength. It allows Maul to avoid Vader's strikes from time to time, maneuver around the field of battle with greater ease, and provides more offensive options.
As I said it has strengths, and also
weaknesses, weaknesses Vader tailored his style towards exploiting. Acrobatics for example leave the user exposed to Makashi-based precision attacks that Vader has at his disposal. While a Soresu-based defensive maneuvers mean that Vader can intercept attacks from any one angle with little movement. All Vader needs to do is fall into a stationary defense position and wait for Maul to exhaust himself. Unlike the standard Djem So duelist Vader has overcome his weaknesses against acrobatic opponents. Simply put Vader has his bases covered. I don't deny that it is an effective tool for Maul that will give Vader difficulty, but overall Vader's style retains the advantage.
Maul does have Dun Moch, actually. He used it against Kenobi on the Turtle Tanker, his clone used it like hell against Vader, he's used it against in the comic Death Sentence, ect, but I digress. The "pure physical victory" thing is an outdated element in Maul's game, he uses Force abilities and Dun Moch far more now, thanks to TCW.
Fair enough however it remains a fact that Maul hasn't been properly trained in this field, and Vader is evidently superior, as well as far less susceptible to taunts.
To be honest I think it's clear to see you haven't fully countered my point that Maul is just as versatile as Vader, if not more so, when it comes to battle tactics and leading opponents to desirable locations.
I've provided you with Vader's superior showings in terms of environmental manipulation, and explained how his mastery of Dun Moch in combination with his mastery over TK, makes him considerably superior in terms of tactics. Maul shows some ingenuity on Naboo, but it was the result of pre-preparation and prior experience with his opponent, advantages Maul does not have here. Other than that his use of the battlefield has been fairly rudimentary. Backing opponents into a corner is a basic and well used strategy in any lightsaber engagement.
And, considering Vader's vast superiority as a tactician, it is highly unlikely that he is going to be fooled by any of Maul's attempts to deceive him, especially considering he has learned the lessons's of Mustafar all too well. Altogether I don't see any evidence to suggest they are equals in this respect, let alone Maul his superior.
That's not really the point, (although I would argue that feats like smashing droids and durasteel with his kicks and cracking transparisteel from tackling Grievous, as well as his clone penetrating Vader's helmet, are feats sufficient to say Vader would feel the shots when they land). What we were arguing was who has the more versatile skill set - Maul employing martial arts techniques into his lightsaber strikes and sequences are techniques Vader does not incorporate, and thus add to Maul's versatility.
At best it's about equal. Maul fully mastered Niman, which is based around taking bits and pieces from every lightsaber form, which is essentially what Vader did with his hybrid Form. Difference being, Maul has no physical limitations to overcome, so there's no need for a hybrid form.
I think he would, but Vader has shrugged off far far worse.
But I disagree. In regards to what Vader can employ in battle he has:
The randomised unpredictability of Shii-Cho and Juyo
The precision and economy of Makashi
The defensive capabilities of Soresu
The strength and stamina of Ataru and Djem So
And the general versatility and Force chaining capabilities of Niman
He has, for all intensive purposes, a style for every occasion. Every move Maul makes and every strategy Maul employs will be countered by the appropriate maneuver, for attack he has Djem So, for defense he has Soresu, he can counter acrobatics with Makashi and exploit Juyo's weaknesses against Force-based attacks with Niman.
This is the sheer versatility that Vader's hybrid style affords. Again:
Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable....
She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems. Ducking out from under a broad sweep of the crimson blade, she somersaulted to safety.
--Taken from Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader
Maul on the other has Juyo, Niman, Jar'Kai and Teras Kasi at his disposal, but he still lacks 5 styles Vader can employ that he does not. Niman should not be compared to Vader's hybrid style. Vader drew on the forms directly, incorporating his high level of skill, if not perhaps mastery over these styles into his primary form in a way that complemented his preferences perfectly. Niman is a jack of all trades form that provides a
general versatility, it draws on multiple styles but does not employ them in anything but a moderate level. It is average in everything, but lacks a highly level of skill in anything. It also doesn't employ any Makashi, the most dueling centric style. Finally Vader is intimately familiar with Jar'Kai and Niman fencing also, the only advantage Maul has there is his superior mastery.
I don't deny that it offers Maul a great deal of versatility as intended, and Maul no doubt employs in in creative and effective ways, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a general form, and no substitute for the forms it draws on.
The only thing Maul can draw on that Vader in anyway cannot is Teras Kasi. I really don't think that that alone makes up Shii-Cho, Makashi, Soresu, Ataru and Djem So, styles Vader unlike Maul employs in battle, and not through some proxy form.
Starkiller doesn't have Maul's skill or agility. Dark Woman is a decent example but IIRC she still caused Vader issues, which was what I was arguing for Maul in the first place, which only aids my argument. She may have teleportation but she, again, isn't as skilled as Maul, or agile in the traditional sense. Jango Fett has killed 8 Jedi with his bare hands. Not to use ABC logic, but it's not uncommon for common Jedi to get fodderized, unless any of them had decent feats.Maul has performed those speed feats as well.
You asked me if Vader compensated for his weaknesses against agile opponents, not if Vader has defeated anyone more agile than Maul. The answer to your question is that he did, by incorporating other styles such as Soresu and Makashi into his form, providing him with as I explained and impenetrable defense and means of exploiting his opponents weaknesses.
And this reality it self evident in the respect that agile opponents have never given him a hard time since, regardless of whether they are as skilled as Maul.
Argue that Maul could be more agile than Vader regardless, but you'd be arguing from absence.
Anyway Vader handled the Dark Woman capably, despite her using plants to constrict him he was still able to hold off her acrobatic onslaught, his defense never faltered, she was only able to manage a brief advantage by ambushing him, from which Vader quickly recovered. And since then Vader improved considerably.
Noting that she may not be as skilled as Maul, but her style was far more acrobatic, she was wielding pure Ataru to I assume master level.
And while Starkiller is not as agile or skilled as Maul, he is faster. Which means it acts as prove that Vader can easily hold off rapid assaults.
In other words you haven't refuted this section of my argument in the slightest.
Your argument was that Maul has a lot of physical strength, that is true but he lacks Vader's dark rage, he can use the Force Vader to outstrip any strength feats Maul performs absolutely.
Anakin defeated Dooku because he tapped into Dark Rage heavily. And honestly I believe Anakin from RotS is Vader/Anakin's overall prime, without CIS. Stronger dueling feats, better physical feats slightly and less physical limitations, comparable Force feats. ANH Kenobi is alright but his skills and physicals deteriorated over the years, making him less formidable than his prime self.
Dooku was in awe of Anakin's style, so I think that suggests he is the better duelist. The only reason Anakin has stronger duelling feats is because post-Order 66 all the decent duelists were dead. That does not suggest he was better. Overall though I disagree, Vader overcame the limitations of his suit and built on his style in ways Anakin never did.
I don't think much of anything gives a clear view of who's superior. I think in terms of raw dueling ability they're rough equals, as I've said. Other than that, Vader is slightly stronger, definitely more durable, equally fast, far less agile, less capable martially/tactically but the clear superior with the Force.
To claim that Maul is superior tactically to Vader just seems silly and unsupported to me. Everything he has done has been rudimentary and replicated by many other duellists, the sole exception to this rule was when Maul has the advantage of extensive pre-preparation and prior experience.