Beniboybling
Worst Member
Originally posted by Marco1907
How powerful do you think ESB Luke is ? Vader had hard time to bring him down completely, iirc, Luke even hit him once on his shoulder.Then, he loses to Luke in RotJ, this means Luke is incredibly powerful or Vader grown very minimal. My choice is second. Because Luke was inexperienced and I don't believe he is better duelist than the likes of RotS Obi-Wan at that time being.
And there is another problem, his speed. Vader had never been fast, the reason Luke bested him in RotJ should be speed difference, because I don't believe that Luke is more skilled or stronger than Vader by RotJ.
By Lucas's explanation and starwars. com, RotJ Vader shouldn't be fast as prime Jedi and Sith, that is why Luke was able to defeat him imho.
Luke may have been inexperienced, but he was incredibly skilled and according to official sources his lightsaber skill was equal to that of Vader:
By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star. Both are limited, Vader by his cybernetic body parts and Skywalker by his relative lack of experience dueling. But Skywalker's skill at blaster deflection is highly refined, and his lightsaber technique so superb that he is able to duel the Dark Lord on even footing - and finally able to defeat a man who is a powerful living product of the ancient Jedi sword traditions from time immemorial. Such an achievement with little formal training is a testament to Skywalker's innate abilities and instinctive skill.--Taken from Insider 62: Fightsaber
Even in their ESB duel, Luke Skywalker is extremely talented:
In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself.--Taken from Insider 62: Fightsaber
Vader isn't at all lacking in speed either:
Vader defeats a Jedi Knight effortlessly and before she can even land a blow:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11115/111155790/4116989-3101636091-39190.jpg
Fast enough to contend with the cloned, and more powerful, Starkiller:
Finally, Starkiller saw an opportunity. They were exchanging rapid blows along the edge of the buckled platform, blades swinging so fast they were visible only as blurs. Vader's defenses were impenetrable; his lightsaber seemed to arrive a split second before Starkiller's, every time.--The Force Unleashed II novelisation
Blitzes Ferus Olin:
This was it, then. The final confrontation.He was ready. His rage was ice and fire.
He charged.
His first blow was easily parried. He came at Vader again. Again. Circling, jumping, vaulting past him, turning. Each time his lightsaber came toward him, it was either deflected in a shock that ran up his arm, or Vader simply wasn't there.
---
Ferus leaped over a gaping hole in the floor and attacked Vader again, but his lightsaber cut through empty air.
---
Vader came out of nowhere, raising a gloved hand. Ferus felt himself lifted up, over Vader's head. He couldn't breathe.
--Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon
Finally his speed is compared with that of Yoda:
It happened before he could get out another word. Faster than an eyeblink. Faster than he'd seen anyone move, anyone except Yoda.--Last Of The Jedi: Secret Weapon
I think its a misconception that Vader is slow, sure the weight of his armor acts a a detriment to his speed but through sheer power he overcomes that. That said Luke is probably faster, although he mainly beat him through raw strength. In fact the duel is inconclusive considering Luke only won through rage mode.
That said I would agree that Maul is faster, but not by a great deal, and not enough to give him an advantage considering Vader's incredible defense capabilities.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vader, with difficulty.Maul's probably the superior swordsman: a confirmed high-end master of multiple forms whereas Vader 'only' borrows elements of all seven {which is still pretty impressive, but probably doesn't require strict mastery}.
As a Force adept, Vader has the advantage with respect to feats and accolades and so I'm inclined to give him the advantage in at least 6 rounds out of 10.
Simply having mastered a greater number of forms does not make one a superior duelist, after all Cin Drallig mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat, yet he is surpassed by Dooku, who has only mastered one. Who in turn is put on level with swordsmasters like Yoda and Windu.
Both Maul and Vader are absolute masters of their respective forms i.e. Form V and Form VII. But I think Vader has taken his chosen form further, as Anakin, Dooku believed him to be the finest Djem So duelist he had ever seen, and that's before the improvements he made as Vader, where he transformed Djem So into a near-perfect and totally unique hybrid style. We are talking Exar Kun levels of ingenuity here, in the respect that he basically made a new form. Maul however is just pure Juyo, and didn't do anything to build on it. The fact that he mastered other forms is irrelevant considering he didn't incorporate them into his style to the level that Vader did.
Pure Juyo Master vs Djem So Hybrid Master = win for Vader IMO.
Overall I agree with the general consensus that Vader will win, he is both a superior duelist and Force User, the only advantage Maul has is speed/agility. But Vader isn't slow himself, and his defense capabilities mean he requires minimal effort to block rapid assaults, all he needs to do is pivot.
