Darth Vader vs Darth Maul [The Debate Center]

Originally posted by ILS
Your posts continue to imply that Maul doesn't have a good defence - why do think this? Maul's defence is less obvious than Vader's but I don't see it as any less formidable. Ataru is a purely offensive lightsaber form well suited for taking on a single opponent in saber combat. Maul, to quote, effortlessly, deflected and avoided the assault of two skilled practitioners of Ataru whilst landing numerous counter-blows and manipulating the location of the fight. The Saberstaff aids Maul in defence as well due to it allowing Maul to cover a wider area in a shorter length of time, but it's hardly his only saving grace when it comes to going on the defensive. Maul easily deflected Savage Opress' blows while on the backfoot (albeit he was early on in his training, but a much angrier version of Savage has given top-tier duelists trouble before so he wasn't exactly useless), and has two forms of battle-precognition at his disposal to boot (foresight and telepathy). His clone/resurrected version was easily managing being on the backfoot against ANH Vader for pages on end whilst landing counter-blows regularly, and while this version of Vader isn't as skilled as prime Vader, he's still a physical powerhouse, and accounting for how easily Maul was defending from him, it's enough to suggest he could hold his own against a prime Vader's offence with more applied effort.

Maul's offence is obviously his main form of attack, and his use of Juyo means he will be vulnerable to Force attacks from time to time, but in terms of saber defence he is actually better than most.

However you make some good points, in the end though I think all this proves it that neither has a large enough advantage to make an impact on the duel.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Well the point is that Vader's style is simply more advanced and refined.

I think that counts for something, the only other contributing factors are speed and strength and overall Vader takes the advantage.

However in terms of feats and accolades, they are more or less equal. Both have bested scores of Jedi as well as highly skilled opponents, and both have been touted as some of the best lightsaber duelists in the history of the Sith Order.

Obi-Wan Kenobi however, can be used as a measuring stick.

According to Death Star in regards to Vader:

He had been a superior fighter even when he had been Anakin Skywalker, and yet Obi-Wan had defeated him.

And yet Kenobi outclassed Maul in their duel on Florrum.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
You misunderstand, I am not saying that Maul's defense is poor, but that Vader's is simply better. In practice this may not appear the case, but neither of them have really being pushed to their limits, in theory however Vader should - with the tools he has at his disposal - come out on top. He just has more defensive resources.

However you make some good points, in the end though I think all this proves it that neither has a large enough advantage to make an impact on the duel.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
"I really am the best."

Well Swords, Vader has shown the capacity of being able to wield staffs with rather ease. Not a saberstaff, but a Vibrostaff, different mechanics to be sure, but I would say Vader could wield a saberstaff if given the chance.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well Swords, Vader has shown the capacity of being able to wield staffs with rather ease. Not a saberstaff, but a Vibrostaff, different mechanics to be sure, but I would say Vader could wield a saberstaff if given the chance.

Originally posted by ILS
Not necessarily. He adapted to his shortcomings by creating a hybrid form, but I'd say the phrase "if it's not broken, don't fix it" applies here. Maul's technique with a lightsaber should be just as refined as Vader's. The guy would practice tens of thousands of different lightsaber sequences a day pre-TPM when he wasn't on assignments or doing anything else, which serves as a good feat of speed and endurance, as well as an indication of how much dedication he put into mastering his technique. One needs to have a high level of technical skill in order to master the Saberstaff as well as the form Juyo, two things Vader hasn't done.

Vader may have devised his form to address his shortcomings, but ultimately what he created was far superior to his original Djem So style, and more importantly far broader and more versatile than Maul's style. For example Vader has all the power and aggression of Djem So, combined with the refined and elegant precision of Makashi.

Not changing the fact that Anakin thoroughly mastered Djem So and has been touted as its greatest practitioner, simply put he has reached Maul's level, then went further.

His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable.

She felt as if she were fighting a droid, although a droid programmed to counter all her best stratagems. Ducking out from under a broad sweep of the crimson blade, she somersaulted to safety.

--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader

He left his lightsaber clipped to his belt. Ordinarily he would have used it to practice on the dueling droids that had been specially designed and constructed to test his mettle. Programmed with the knowledge and skills of a dozen different martial artists, and armed with deadly cutting or impact weapons, they were formidable opponents indeed, and had been an integral part of Sith training since time immemorial. But not everything was about the lightsaber. There were other attributes, other weapons in his arsenal, that needed exercising as well.

--Taken from Death Star

Darth Vader held his lightsaber firmly, wrists locked, and watched the killer droid circle to its left. The droid was a new model, one of a dozen identical units constructed to his personal specifications. Like Vader, it also held a lightsaber. It was tall, spindly, looked something like the general-purpose Asps to be found all over the Empire, but with a number of special modifications. The unit was faster than an ordinary man, stronger, programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen different fighting styles.

--Taken from Shadows Of The Empire

Originally posted by ILS
I see Maul and Vader as equal in combat speed, but with Maul being more agile, something that Vader finds problematic in duels. In terms of strength, Vader has more raw lifting strength and power, but in terms of striking ability Maul is either negligibly close to, or on-par with Vader. Essentially, Vader will win a blade lock, but in terms of their blades clashing neither would really overpower the other.

Going purely by feat, Maul has bested better opposition than Vader. The main way people seem to argue Vader's skill feats is by taking his fight against Maul's clone and then saying "Vader saw a vast improvement after this, so he should be more skilled than Maul by his prime". I find this reasoning shaky at best because of the absence of real evidence. I put them as equals in raw saber skill, but I don't put Vader ahead by any means.

Obi-Wan didn't outclass him. It's explained in Shadow Conspiracy that the reason he got the upper hand on Maul and Savage in the cave was because he adopted a highly aggressive and unorthodox form, which surprised Maul and Savage. Not only would this not work a second time, but it's not exactly indicative of Kenobi being better than Maul. He caught him off-guard once. Great. I could show Maul kicking Obi-Wan around on the turtle tanker, or him dominating Obi-Wan after applying Dun Moch - but the fact is fighters have ups and downs. Whenever it's just been Maul and Obi-Wan, 1v1, no circumstances involved, they've fought equally.

Originally posted by ILS
Two differences there. 1) With a vibrostaff the risk of cutting yourself in half is far less, and 2) The dexterity required to wield a lightsaber alone exceeds a vibrostaff, never mind a Saberstaff. I don't question Vader's ability to take up the use of a Saberstaff and master it after a few years training, but the argument was that he hasn't, and even if he did he'd only be as refined as Maul, which was my initial argument.

Right as I said 'different mechanics' 😛

But I see.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Beating members [B]I dislike more then you (Marco and Power) isn't really an accomplishment. [/B]

There's a ton of people I dislike more then you, lol. 😬

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well Swords, Vader has shown the capacity of being able to wield staffs with rather ease. Not a saberstaff, but a Vibrostaff, different mechanics to be sure, but I would say Vader could wield a saberstaff if given the chance.

Originally posted by Burn Baby
No, it is.

No, it's not.

Originally posted by Burn Baby
Maul being a high-end master of multiple forms does not suggest superiority over Vader in lightsaber skill. If it did, Maul would be more skilled than Dooku as well, and so would Mace.

Like Vader, Dooku is implied to be a master of multiple forms as a legendary former lightsaber instructor for the Jedi and his claim to Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil that he could imitate the technique of pretty much the entire Jedi Council. That said, there's nothing suggesting that Mace and Maul aren't superior to Dooku and Maul with respect to technical mastery (i.e. swordsmanship).

Originally posted by Burn Baby
But neither are true.

Now there's some stellar reasoning. 👆

Originally posted by Beniboybling
He was highly skilled in Niman and Jar'Kai, so he certainly has the foundations.

However being able to wield a saberstaff doesn't really make you a better duelist. The same amount of skill can be acquired through other means, and has been by superior duelists.

Right I know, although would be interesting to see Vader wield a saberstaff for a comic issue or 2, or a small part of a novel.

Originally posted by carthage
None of that makes him a better duelist than Vader, you're using the same reasoning Neph and DMB use for Kas'im and Bane.

A high-end master of multiple sword-fighting forms is going to be a superior swordsman next to a guy who's a high-end master of only one. {Though, again, Vader may very well be a master of multiple forms; we just don't have strict confirmation of that fact.} Whether or not Maul would win a duel against Vader is another matter {since there's more involved than just strict skill}, but Maul has more than Vader in his camp with respect to technical mastery.

Temp, you should debate Beni. I would have immense satisfaction to see him lose within seconds.

Beniboybling
Simply having mastered a greater number of forms does not make one a superior duelist, after all Cin Drallig mastered all seven forms of lightsaber combat, yet he is surpassed by Dooku, who has only mastered one. Who in turn is put on level with swordsmasters like Yoda and Windu.

Cin Drallig may very well be a superior swordsman to Dooku with respect to technical mastery; the fact that Drallig would lose a duel doesn't require him to be an inferior technician or swordsman, it simply could owe to a colossal disparity in the Force.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Like Vader, Dooku is implied to be a master of multiple forms as a legendary former lightsaber instructor for the Jedi and his claim to Grievous in Labyrinth of Evil that he could imitate the technique of pretty much the entire Jedi Council. That said, there's nothing suggesting that Mace and Maul aren't superior to Dooku and Maul with respect to technical mastery (i.e. swordsmanship).

Temp SLAUGHTERHOUSING Beni

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Do you have a source/quote for that? Just interested in general.

Labyrinth of Evil
"Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters."

He called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air - - a Makashi flourish.

"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Cin Drallig may very well be a superior swordsman to Dooku with respect to technical mastery; the fact that Drallig would lose a duel doesn't require him to be an inferior technician or swordsman, it simply could owe to a colossal disparity in the Force.

Well by feats he isn't, only thing Cin has shown is exchanging a few blows with Anakin before dying. Although now thinking on it, there were more than likely some other factors regarding that....but still.

As far as statements/accolades go for Cin....then yeah, he's pretty high up there with being one of the top blademasters in the Jedi Order.