Darth Vader vs Darth Maul [The Debate Center]

Started by Beniboybling5 pages

Originally posted by The_Tempest
A high-end master of multiple sword-fighting forms is going to be a superior swordsman next to a guy who's a high-end master of only one. {Though, again, Vader may very well be a master of multiple forms; we just don't have strict confirmation of that fact.} Whether or not Maul would win a duel against Vader is another matter {since there's more involved than just strict skill}, but Maul has more than Vader in his camp with respect to technical mastery.
Not if the high-end master has mastered his respective form to a higher level than any of the forms his opponent has mastered.

Indeed I really see no evidence that suggests Cin Drallig has attained a level of mastery over any of the seven forms to the level Dooku did over Makashi. Likewise its self evident that Vader's hybrid form was superior to any one of Maul's forms.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not if the high-end master has mastered his respective form to a higher level than any of the forms his opponent has mastered.

Indeed I really see no evidence that suggests Cin Drallig has attained a level of mastery over any of the seven forms to the level Dooku did over Makashi.

Which would mean that Drallig isn't as skilled a Makashi practitioner as Dooku and I'd agree with that. But as a general swordsman, yes, someone who has mastered multiple sword-fighting disciplines would logically be more technically skilled than someone who has only mastered one.

Juyo was not a perfect form and had many weaknesses and shortcomings, many areas which it did not cover, which is why Windu came along and fixed it.

Vader may have devised his form to address his shortcomings, but ultimately what he created was far superior to his original Djem So style, and more importantly far broader and more versatile than Maul's style. For example Vader has all the power and aggression of Djem So, combined with the refined and elegant precision of Makashi.

I never said it was, and if Maul used Juyo alone he probably would have some weaknesses and shortcomings. Luckily he has other fighting styles to draw from. Anyway, aside from a lack of focus on defence (which Maul compensates for with his agility and Niman), and a vulnerability to Force attacks, what are these "many" weaknesses and shortcomings you're referencing?

I have to disagree with the notion that Vader's fighting style overall is "far broader and more versatile". Maul's shtick is essentially being highly erratic and unpredictable, as well as being a tactical genius who uses his environment and has strategies to throw away and replace on a whim.

For being erratic, he attacks Komari Vosa in such a way that his blows appear to be coming from everywhere at once, an erratic staccato:

In his mind, the duel was all but over— his opponent was now dragging out the inevitable moment of defeat in a series of small humiliations. By turning to such diversionary tactics, Vosa had all but admitted that she was no match for the erratic staccato blows that he was delivering, seemingly from everywhere, all at once.
-Maul: Lockdown
For using his environment to his advantage, there's Maul casually controlling where the duel at Theed took place, which resulted in Kenobi and Jinn being separated and Maul having Qui-Gon in an area ill-suited to practice Ataru (can't remember the source for the part about Ataru, though):

Maul spun his lightsaber, deflecting his opponents' strikes as he backed through the open doorway. He launched a high kick that connected with Obi-Wan's jaw. As Obi-Wan fell back and rolled across the floor, Maul backed up, luring Qui-Gon toward the power generator. Obi-Wan got up fast and sprinted to rejoin the fight.

That's it. Come to me.

Qui-Gon swung. Maul parried and swung back fast, clipping Qui-Gon's blade and then Obi-Wan's. The double-bladed lightsaber was a blur. Maul backed onto an inspection platform that was suspended high over the generator's deep shaft, and kicked off, backflipping to one of the many catwalks that spanned different levels in the shaft. Both Jedi leaped after him, and the fight proceeded along the catwalk.

Maul leered again at Qui-Gon. You think you're driving me back. You have no idea that I'm in control. You don't know where I'm taking you.

Maul sensed the laser doors opening behind him. Qui-Gon was unrelenting in his ongoing attack, but Maul parried every blow. Qui-Gon swung at Maul's legs, but the blade swept under his feet as Maul jumped backward. Maul continued moving back, leading Qui-Gon into the hallway. They passed the first four security barriers before the doors activated and shut.

Warding off Qui-Gon's attack with each backward step, Maul maneuvered around the circular mouth of the generator's core, a virtually fathomless pit.
-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

For another example of this, Maul maneuvered Anoon Bondara into a position which would leave him without an avenue of escape:
Darth Maul had seen the grim realization in the eyes of his foe: the knowledge that the Twi’lek could not defeat his adversary. Once defeat was conceded in the mind, its reality was inevitable. It was only a matter of time.

He pressed his attack to an even higher intensity, driving the Jedi back toward his speeder bike, intending to pin him between the dual-bladed lightsaber and the bike. With his movements thus constricted, it would be mere moments before the Twi’lek’s tentacled head was separated from his neck.
-Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

And for being able to throw strategies away on the fly, he did this in his first duel with Qui-Gon Jinn:
The Jedi meets my first blow, blocking it. He has expected my flying maneuver.

If an opponent can read you, the fight is over. I don't like that the Jedi was perfectly prepared for my first blow. Within seconds, I throw away my usual combinations and strategies.
-Episode I Journal: Darth Maul

For further consolidation that Vader's fighting style isn't any more versatile than Maul's, let's talk about the fact that Maul has not only mastered numerous martial arts aside from Teras Kasi, but the fact Maul incorporates Teras Kasi into both his unarmed counter-attacks and his lightsaber sequences. Him and Anoon Bondara both somehow incorporated the unarmed martial art into their blade combat.
And while Vader has mastered Djem So to it's Nth degree, and has subsequently drawn from every other Form, Maul's mastery of Niman also allows Maul to dabble in every other Form, which combined with his use of martial arts, dual-wielding, Saberstaff mastery, and of course, Juyo, makes him quite the versatile individual. He has picked up and mastered a large variety of combat techniques, which combined with his tactical mind, makes him at least Vader's equal in terms of versatility.
/rantover
Part 2 to this post coming soon, don't want to exceed the character limit.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Labyrinth of Evil
"Power moves served you well on Hypori against Jedi such as Daakman Barrek and Tarr Seir. But I pity you should you have to face off against any of the Council Masters."

He called into hand his courtly, curve-handled lightsaber and drew a rapid X in the air - - a Makashi flourish.

"Do I need to demonstrate what responses you can expect from Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan Kenobi? From Mace Windu or, stars help you, Yoda?"

That's interesting, however considering the disdain Dooku held for other forms aside from Makashi, it seems highly unlikely he used his knowledge and mastery over the other forms to improve his primary fighting style, which is pure Makashi.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Which would mean that Drallig isn't as skilled a Makashi practitioner as Dooku and I'd agree with that. But as a general swordsman, yes, someone who has mastered multiple sword-fighting disciplines would logically be more technically skilled than someone who has only mastered one.
Perhaps you'd like to explain that logic, because I do not see it.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Perhaps you'd like to explain that logic, because I do not see it.

It's pretty straightforward.
You posited that Dooku spent decades refining his command of Makashi and expressed doubt that Drallig would have mastered it to the same degree. I agree with you. Dooku's likely technical knowledge of other forms aside, he's obviously a specialist who elects to hone his skills in one form.

So while Drallig may not be as skilled a Makashi practitioner, his mastery of the other six forms probably makes him a superior sword-fighter in general to the Count.

Just like if you mastered 6 martial arts and I only mastered Taekwondo, I may be the superior Taekwondo practitioner, but you've mastered an additional five separate disciplines next to my one, which would mean your martial arts skills are technically greater by virtue of the wide range of techniques you mastered next to my comparatively limited arsenal.

Vader has also undergone just as much rigorous training as Maul has:
Agreed, I don't think there's a difference in their training. Maul has a similar training regime against droids with martial arts programming and varying weapons.
The only time Vader has struggled against an agile opponent has been well before his prime. And I think the sheer strength in the Force that Vader possesses, that eclipses Maul's, would give him a serious advantage in terms of power. Perhaps not enough to disarm him, but enough to stagger him and create openings.
Has it ever been noted that Vader can compensate for more agile opponents? Because I think it'd be somewhat ignorant to dismiss the notion of agility bothering Vader altogether just because he's "in his prime". He still has physical limitations.

Eh, Maul's striking prowess would be enough to match Vader's strength when it comes to clashing blades. Between destroying droids with his kicks, kicking through durasteel armor, punching through a wampa (a feat performed without Force augmentation and before receiving two physical strength increases), kicking into a man's torso, shattering bones with his strikes (even as a teenager), ragdolling an armored creature which stoody 8 foot tall and strangling blood from it's mouth and eyes, and then slamming it with enough force to break it's neck (without Force augmentation) ect are all feats which can match Vader's. These were all performed before Maul's increase in overall Force Augmentation leading into TCW, as well. And Maul's strength feats during TCW aren't lacking either, between slamming Grievous into transparisteel hard enough to crack it, and launching a spear over a ridiculous distance like a missile with enough force to pierce clone armor.

And perhaps Maul's best strength feat, which happened pre-TCW - he ripped the armored skull off of a varactyl in a single jerk. This was done without Force Augmentation, to boot. These things are absolutely enormous (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Varactyl), and when you consider all of the tendons and muscle in addition to their skeleton, ripping one of their heads off is a pretty monumental feat of strength.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4141754-rips+off+varactyl+skull.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4141755-rips+off+varactyl+skull2.png

e really hasn't, would you like to provide examples?
Who has Vader bested who is on-par with Qui-Gon Jinn and TPM Kenobi collectively, Anoon Bondara whose skill was considered by many to be literally without equal (who had, self-admittedly, no chance in hell of defeating Maul). Bondara was self-admittedly less skilled than Jinn and Windu, but really, given the reputation he built for himself sufficient to have people believing he really was the best warrior in the Order, it's more a feat for Windu, Jinn and Maul more than anything else, to be so much better than him.

For a TCW feat, contending with Windu and Secura simultaneously should be better than anything Vader has accomplished. Some of the fight happens off-panel but given the speed of Force Users, and the time that was spent showing Dooku killing Tipplee and fighting Obi-Wan, it stands to reason that Maul engaged them for a fair period of time, and he in no way appeared to be losing.

I accept that Vader, as a swordsman, is a rough equal to Maul, because of how much he improved, but I don't know if he has better pure dueling feats.

Fair enough. But the fact remains Vader surpassed him, they were not equals.
To be fair, I could make try and make the argument that Maul is more skilled than Obi-Wan.

The Death Star quote is hard to refute, in terms of Vader surpassing Obi-Wan, but I honestly see them as equals in dueling skill going by everything outside of that quote. Maul, Kenobi, Ventress, Vader and Luke, I all put in tier 8, with Windu, Dooku and Anakin being in tier 9. But yeah, if you don't subscribe to my logic then Vader would be better than Obi-Wan.

Tempest's logic is correct to me, but it should be noted that there are exceptions to that rule. Dooku was noted to be dueling prodigy with an exceptional talent for Makashi, so his exemplary skill with it could allow him to stand against or surpass duelists with a mastery of all forms. A single-minded focus on a single form may exceed that of someone who gains skill in all, theoretically. While technically less skilled, devotedly embodying their form could allow one to reach a height that the other cannot.

That said, the versatility of possessing mastery of all forms should be incredible. Such a person could easily combine the defense of Soresu, the poise and precision of Makashi, the power of Djem So, the energy of Ataru and the ferocity of Juyo and emphasise each forms strengths while switching between them to cover their weaknesses. A single style practitioner would still have the weaknesses of their chosen speciality and not have that same versatility.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's pretty straightforward.
You posited that Dooku spent decades refining his command of Makashi and expressed doubt that Drallig would have mastered it to the same degree. I agree with you. Dooku's likely technical knowledge of other forms aside, he's obviously a specialist who elects to hone his skills in one form.

So while Drallig may not be as skilled a Makashi practitioner, his mastery of the other six forms probably makes him a superior sword-fighter in general to the Count.

Just like if you mastered 6 martial arts and I only mastered Taekwondo, I may be the superior Taekwondo practitioner, but you've mastered an additional five separate disciplines next to my one, which would mean your martial arts skills are technically greater by virtue of the wide range of techniques you mastered next to my comparatively limited arsenal.

I do see the logic in this, but I feel like it has to take a backseat to dueling feats and accolades when we're discussing higher tier duelists. Sora Bulq apparently mastered every lightsaber form but Dooku disarmed him in a single move while Bulq was backed up by Tholme.

Dooku's clearly a lot more powerful than Bulq.

Originally posted by ILS
I do see the logic in this, but I feel like it has to take a backseat to dueling feats and accolades when we're discussing higher tier duelists. Sora Bulq apparently mastered every lightsaber form but Dooku disarmed him in a single move while Bulq was backed up by Tholme.

Like I've said, there's more to a duel than strict technical prowess. Dooku's not only an extraordinary technician but is also vastly more powerful in the Force than someone like Sora Bulq.

Originally posted by ILS
I never said it was, and if Maul used Juyo alone he probably would have some weaknesses and shortcomings. Luckily he has other fighting styles to draw from. Anyway, aside from a lack of focus on defence (which Maul compensates for with his agility and Niman), and a vulnerability to Force attacks, what are these "many" weaknesses and shortcomings you're referencing?

I have to disagree with the notion that Vader's fighting style overall is "far broader and more versatile". Maul's shtick is essentially being highly erratic and unpredictable, as well as being a tactical genius who uses his environment and has strategies to throw away and replace on a whim.

For being erratic, he attacks Komari Vosa in such a way that his blows appear to be coming from everywhere at once, an erratic staccato:
For using his environment to his advantage, there's Maul casually controlling where the duel at Theed took place, which resulted in Kenobi and Jinn being separated and Maul having Qui-Gon in an area ill-suited to practice Ataru (can't remember the source for the part about Ataru, though):

For another example of this, Maul maneuvered Anoon Bondara into a position which would leave him without an avenue of escape:
And for being able to throw strategies away on the fly, he did this in his first duel with Qui-Gon Jinn:
For further consolidation that Vader's fighting style isn't any more versatile than Maul's, let's talk about the fact that Maul has not only mastered numerous martial arts aside from Teras Kasi, but the fact Maul incorporates Teras Kasi into both his unarmed counter-attacks and his lightsaber sequences. Him and Anoon Bondara both somehow incorporated the unarmed martial art into their blade combat.
And while Vader has mastered Djem So to it's Nth degree, and has subsequently drawn from every other Form, Maul's mastery of Niman also allows Maul to dabble in every other Form, which combined with his use of martial arts, dual-wielding, Saberstaff mastery, and of course, Juyo, makes him quite the versatile individual. He has picked up and mastered a large variety of combat techniques, which combined with his tactical mind, makes him at least Vader's equal in terms of versatility.
/rantover
Part 2 to this post coming soon, don't want to exceed the character limit.

It is a style, like all the styles, that is focused and therefore narrow in what it can achieve, broader than most but it still had shortcomings.
His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves were crisp and unpredictable.
There is really little Maul's style has that Vader's doesn't, its precise, powerful, staunch, unpredictable. All it is lacking in is agility and acrobatics, but that is a trait that has both strengths and weaknesses. And Vader is a master of Dun Moch, whereas Maul prefers a purely physical victory, and that ultimately leaves gaps in his knowledge and ability.
It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won't deny his mastery of the Jar'Kai technique. Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis

Vader on the other hand is a tactical genius, and no doubt applies that to combat.

If we are playing examples, I'm sure you recall this masterful use the enviroment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvrAAD8tRw8&t=3m25s

Which he has replicated on many other occasions, in fact I might even go as far to say that Vader's masterful use of Dun Moch and his environment is unparalleled.

In regards to Teras Kasi I would refer to the above quote, and while impressive it ultimately is going to have little effect against Vader's armor and endurance. Finally Niman would certainly give that advantage, but its no substitute for drawing on the forms directly as Vader did. Noting that Vader is a highly skilled practitioner of Niman and Jar'Kai dual fencing as well, possessing enough skill as a Padawan to catch Dooku off balance.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Like I've said, there's more to a duel than strict technical prowess. Dooku's not only an extraordinary technician but is also vastly more powerful in the Force than someone like Sora Bulq.
Dooku's clearly a lot more powerful than Bulq.
What did power have to do with Dooku disarming Bulq of one of his blades?

Originally posted by ILS
What did power have to do with Dooku disarming Bulq of one of his blades?

Power in the Force is a major part of lightsaber dueling. Dooku is probably faster, has faster reactions and can easily predict Bulq's moves while Bulq may find the opposite more difficult.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Power in the Force is a major part of lightsaber dueling. Dooku is probably faster, has faster reactions and can easily predict Bulq's moves while Bulq may find the opposite more difficult.
Eh, I suppose, but it's hardly something that's touched upon heavily. Kenobi is dwarfed in Force power by Dooku and he wouldn't be stomped by him due to comparable physical feats and approaching skill. TPM Darth Maul wouldn't be wrecked in a duel by RotJ Darth Vader. The list probably goes on.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's pretty straightforward.
You posited that Dooku spent decades refining his command of Makashi and expressed doubt that Drallig would have mastered it to the same degree. I agree with you. Dooku's likely technical knowledge of other forms aside, he's obviously a specialist who elects to hone his skills in one form.

So while Drallig may not be as skilled a Makashi practitioner, his mastery of the other six forms probably makes him a superior sword-fighter in general to the Count.

Just like if you mastered 6 martial arts and I only mastered Taekwondo, I may be the superior Taekwondo practitioner, but you've mastered an additional five separate disciplines next to my one, which would mean your martial arts skills are technically greater by virtue of the wide range of techniques you mastered next to my comparatively limited arsenal.

Only if you put effort into combining your mastery over those separate disciplines into one collective style. If you do not then all you an do in battle is alternate between your inferior mastery of each style, but in the end none of them, unless you manage to gain a strategic advantage, will be enough to best your opponent's superior master of just one discipline.

To quote Dooku himself:

They take on too much. Someone who spent all his time studying one form could probably best a battlemaster.

--Taken from the Jedi Path

To put it into context, Maul has mastered several forms yes, but all he can do is alternate between those forms during combat (though this is something he will likely not do), yet none of them will be able to surpass superior Vader's hybrid style, which has had its effectiveness supplemented by other styles.

Likewise Drallig can alternate between all the styles he wants, but his skill in no one discipline he has at his disposal, will be enough to surpass Dooku's Makashi. Jack of all trades, master one none - metaphorically speaking - would be an appropriate phrase.

Which doesn't quite fit since he actually is a master of all of them.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Which doesn't quite fit since he actually is a master of all of them.
That's why I said metaphorically, Cin Drallig has a broad skill set but he is not as exceptional as Dooku in any one style.

Originally posted by ILS
Has it ever been noted that Vader can compensate for more agile opponents? Because I think it'd be somewhat ignorant to dismiss the notion of agility bothering Vader altogether just because he's "in his prime". He still has physical limitations.
He bested Starkiller, the Dark Woman (who can teleport) and took on 8 Jedi at once, killing 4. He has also demonstrated incredible speed, often imperceptible by non-Force sensitives and Force sensitives alike.

I believe I covered this in my original post.

Originally posted by ILS
Eh, Maul's striking prowess would be enough to match Vader's strength when it comes to clashing blades. Between destroying droids with his kicks, kicking through durasteel armor, punching through a wampa (a feat performed without Force augmentation and before receiving two physical strength increases), kicking into a man's torso, shattering bones with his strikes (even as a teenager), ragdolling an armored creature which stoody 8 foot tall and strangling blood from it's mouth and eyes, and then slamming it with enough force to break it's neck (without Force augmentation) ect are all feats which can match Vader's. These were all performed before Maul's increase in overall Force Augmentation leading into TCW, as well. And Maul's strength feats during TCW aren't lacking either, between slamming Grievous into transparisteel hard enough to crack it, and launching a spear over a ridiculous distance like a missile with enough force to pierce clone armor.

And perhaps Maul's best strength feat, which happened pre-TCW - he ripped the armored skull off of a varactyl in a single jerk. This was done without Force Augmentation, to boot. These things are absolutely enormous (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Varactyl), and when you consider all of the tendons and muscle in addition to their skeleton, ripping one of their heads off is a pretty monumental feat of strength.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4141754-rips+off+varactyl+skull.png
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4141755-rips+off+varactyl+skull2.png

Maul is evidently strong, but he doesn't have the sheer rage and power that Vader possesses.
Who has Vader bested who is on-par with Qui-Gon Jinn and TPM Kenobi collectively, Anoon Bondara whose skill was considered by many to be literally without equal (who had, self-admittedly, no chance in hell of defeating Maul). Bondara was self-admittedly less skilled than Jinn and Windu, but really, given the reputation he built for himself sufficient to have people believing he really was the best warrior in the Order, it's more a feat for Windu, Jinn and Maul more than anything else, to be so much better than him.

For a TCW feat, contending with Windu and Secura simultaneously should be better than anything Vader has accomplished. Some of the fight happens off-panel but given the speed of Force Users, and the time that was spent showing Dooku killing Tipplee and fighting Obi-Wan, it stands to reason that Maul engaged them for a fair period of time, and he in no way appeared to be losing.

I accept that Vader, as a swordsman, is a rough equal to Maul, because of how much he improved, but I don't know if he has better pure dueling feats.

He took on and defeated Dooku in both Force and martial prowess before his prime, and fought toe-to-toe with Kenobi, who he would go on to surpass. Some of the best duellists in the Order. He also beat Kenobi in ANH, who should not be underestimated.
Even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner.

--Taken from Insider #62: Fightsaber

To be fair, I could make try and make the argument that Maul is more skilled than Obi-Wan.

The Death Star quote is hard to refute, in terms of Vader surpassing Obi-Wan, but I honestly see them as equals in dueling skill going by everything outside of that quote. Maul, Kenobi, Ventress, Vader and Luke, I all put in tier 8, with Windu, Dooku and Anakin being in tier 9. But yeah, if you don't subscribe to my logic then Vader would be better than Obi-Wan.

Ultimately I don't believe feats alone give a clear view of who is superior.