Originally posted by Lord Stark
The level of debate on these forums has deteriorated, the fact that posters legitimately think that Dooku who's held saberlocks with "Whirlwind of Destruction" Yoda is weaker than Ventress is unreal.
I do agree with you, but I do think people need to differentiate between "Physical" strength and "Force Enhanced" strength.
Skywalker is "physically" stronger than Dooku, but Dooku can hold him off with "Force Enhanced" strength.
Sidious can reach through the Force to get in a blade lock with Maul and Opress combined, but that doesn't make his average strike equal to that of Maul and Opress's combined due to the brothers having immense "Physical" strength which is always there whether they reach through the Force or not.
Originally posted by Aurbere
So... Dooku's victory should be unanimously supported, right?
Of course of course zbaff zbaff zbaff gnégnégnégnégnégnégnégnégné disarm blablabl stupid conversation... This was just stupid as hell...
""Physical" strength and "Force Enhanced" strength."
Not to mention than Force Enhanced strengh can be procured by sith artifacts (some gauntlets) trading strong emotion or just force enrgy into physichal strengh usefull if you are too lazy to learn teh technic, and it resist the debuff (like malak does)
Revan personaly use this kind of gauntlet for safty. 5remember revan fighting style rely on those enhancement dexterity, speed, super sens, precision and strengh... And malak can debuff them... And he have form VII wich is actually a pain in the ass for Revan preco...
"Sidious can reach through the Force to get in a blade lock with Maul and Opress combined, but that doesn't make his average strike equal to that of Maul and Opress's combined due to the brothers having immense "Physical" strength which is always there whether they reach through the Force or not."
Yhea but Like plagueis say, it is an hudge waste of stamina.... That's why yoda loose in RotS....
I have to had than this is like Vader weakness --> Lightning. Vader have counter mesure.. If your lightning is not super powerfull -->Dooku/malgus lightning.
You won't be able to exploit this weakness....
Dooku have counter mesure to compensate his weakness but if you are some kind of malgus.... You can exploit this weakness....
Originally posted by RevanchisteYhea but Like plagueis say, it is an hudge waste of stamina.... That's why yoda loose in RotS....
True say with the Force enhanced abilities using up Force reserves.
But I still hold by Yoda vs Sidious being a stalemate. Yoda did run, but it's not like Sidious was chasing him.
There is also force physichal resitance enhancement it's named protection in JKA. It Require focus. Revan invent a technic, to regain systematicaly the stamina waste after disativating the boost. It allow him to use them with parcymony... It's a part of Form II and form V philosophy. In his djem so (he devlop djem before he realise than he have a betetr potential in shien.) using force speed at briev moment, to counter attack and strik with speed and precision.
But the problem of not using light saber + enhance abilities is the greatest problem of form 0 and Revan reborn's niman especialy foundry revan, inconsistant, great lack of light saber technic, leave the user exposed....
But we are with the Youg dooku he have a lot more of stamina and strengh, but less force enhancement abilities....
Don't forget it.
And also don't forget the 6th sens :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dOXkI0PKweM#t=53
Typical of form I/VII praticioners, very devlopped.
If you take Revan, windu or Yoda they fully cappble of doing the same....
Originally posted by Marco1907
Disarming your opponent = auto win.
That makes no sense at all.
Watch "Highlander" (both movies and TV series). Both Connor and Duncan got disarmed several times in various duels and still managed to emerge the victor, generally by using makeshift weapons and/or unarmed combat skills to fend off their opponent until they could retrieve their swords.
And they aren't even Jedi, the people who can easily retrieve a dropped weapon by just calling it back to their hand with their minds.
So no, disarming the opponent is in no way an "auto-win."
Originally posted by chilled monkey
That makes no sense at all.Watch "Highlander" (both movies and TV series). Both Connor and Duncan got disarmed several times in various duels and still managed to emerge the victor, generally by using makeshift weapons and/or unarmed combat skills to fend off their opponent until they could retrieve their swords.
And they aren't even Jedi, the people who can easily retrieve a dropped weapon by just calling it back to their hand with their minds.
So no, disarming the opponent is in no way an "auto-win."
Agreed. We even have a few examples of it not being the end of the fight in SW Canon.
It's obviously the superior position to be in having disarmed your opponents weapon. But it's not over at all. Especially not when your Lightsaber is still around in the vicinity and in working order.
Originally posted by Lord StarkI suppose, but going toe to toe with Skywalker period is no small feat considering he's been noted to have monstrous strength by many sources.
Nope, it means only Dooku's weakness, Kenobi did the same longer than Dooku and even defeated Skywalker. Skywalker's strength also means nothing to the likes of Savage or Maul, he would need to use his skills to defeat them. Which means he has a better chance against Dooku than he has against Kenobi, Maul, Savage etc.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
I said with one hand genius. Ventress blocking one of them with one hand isn't impressive.Also this argument is tiresome and has virtually Ventress is no where near Dooku even in H2H. Dooku's fought with the likes of Yoda and Skywalker, if he doesn't underestimate Savage he will not get disarmed by him.
Lmfao. Ventress can do that shit as just as easy. You are overrating Dooku on something that never happened, did Ventress try to blocking them with one hand and failed ? No, it never happened. So wtf are you blabbing on ? Not to mention that has nothing to do with strength, it is just about good positioning and balance.
Ventress stomps Dooku in a pure H2H Combat only, you need to understand that guy's powerset before trying to defend him, Dooku's power comes from his experience and his knowledge of the force, not his physical abilities. He is a 83 years old geezer. And he doesn't even have the same force potential which Yoda and Sidious has. His full potential is at the same level with Ventress or even inferior.
But if you have any H2H Combat only feat for Dooku, let me see it. I doubt that Dooku has any strength or H2H combat feat to compare him with even Ventress. Dooku is a pure duelist / fencer and a very capable force user that's all, not a warrior.
Technicaly zome character are zuper powerfull but don't have much opportunity to expoze there zkillz, zo feat are often meaninglezz... And zome character run at 260% or are boozted with artifact etc when they perform their feat...
I hate feat feat.. I prefer focuz on pure technicaly abilitiez and the way where they employ their zkill...
Kit Fizto iz not oprezz, he don't have enough kinetical power to dizarm dooku. And form II iz devlopped to counter form I !!! Thiz include anti-dizarming technicz... And you are with a dooku lezz good in force enhancement but that compenzate by hiz youger age zo... ztop with taht zhit pleaze !!!! You hit my heart deeply !!!!
Thiz like malguz V.Z vader yhea but malguz have lightning and zidiouz iz able to blablabla... But Malguz iz not zidiouz.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Nope, it means only Dooku's weakness,
Dude what weakness? He blocks Skywalker's 2 handed bashes with 1 hand:
Originally posted by DARTH POWERat 2:34 here:
Skywalker bashes on Dooku's blade 3 times when he's on the floor, yet can not disarm him, and Dooku holds the blade lock 1 Handed no-less. That's why Skywalker resorts to grabbing Dooku's neck. So there clearly isn't any kind of Major Weakness to the Kinetic energy of Skywalker's blade there.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Kenobi did the same longer than Dooku and even defeated Skywalker.
Probably because Kenobi is less than half Dooku's age so will clearly have better stamina. Not to mention Kenobi didn't tire himself out fighting 2 Jedi first. So Has nothing to do with a form weakness.
And FYI that ABOVE fight's actually how I see a 1 v 1 going between Dooku and Sith Anakin. Dooku's Lightning compensates for any kind of physical advantage Skywalker gets.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Nope, it means only Dooku's weakness, Kenobi did the same longer than Dooku and even defeated Skywalker. Skywalker's strength also means nothing to the likes of Savage or Maul, he would need to use his skills to defeat them. Which means he has a better chance against Dooku than he has against Kenobi, Maul, Savage etc.
Anakin is far stronger than Maul or Savage. Kenobi masters a form that focuses on defense. He was able to hold off Savage and Maul in a saberlock.
Lmfao. Ventress can do that shit as just as easy. You are overrating Dooku on something that never happened, did Ventress try to blocking them with one hand and failed ? No, it never happened. So wtf are you blabbing on ? Not to mention that has nothing to do with strength, it is just about good positioning and balance.
Nah not really. Ventress consistently gets overwhelmed by serious Skywalker alone. And before you cite that ridiculous one off showing of her fending off the duo, she was on the defensive the whole time.
Ventress stomps Dooku in a pure H2H Combat only, you need to understand that guy's powerset before trying to defend him, Dooku's power comes from his experience and his knowledge of the force, not his physical abilities. He is a 83 years old geezer. And he doesn't even have the same force potential which Yoda and Sidious has. His full potential is at the same level with Ventress or even inferior.
No she doesn't. Dooku's force enhanced strength allows him to exchange blows with Yoda. Ventress would go down in one hit.
But if you have any H2H Combat only feat for Dooku, let me see it. I doubt that Dooku has any strength or H2H combat feat to compare him with even Ventress. Dooku is a pure duelist / fencer and a very capable force user that's all, not a warrior.
Are you serious? H2H combat is a part of basic Jedi training. His force enhanced speed and strength is greater than Ventress and to top it all off he has way longer reach.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Anakin is far stronger than Maul or Savage. Kenobi masters a form that focuses on defense. He was able to hold off Savage and Maul in a saberlock.
Can you explain to me why Anakin get ragdolled by Savage Opress here ? If he is stronger than Maul or Savage ?
Anakin is not at another strength tier than Obi-Wan, he is just using his strength properly at offense, unlike the defensive fighter Obi-Wan. That is the sole reason why Anakin failed to overpower Obi-Wan at Mustafar. Because they are close in terms of physical abilities.
Originally posted by Lord Stark
Nah not really. Ventress consistently gets overwhelmed by serious Skywalker alone. And before you cite that ridiculous one off showing of her fending off the duo, she was on the defensive the whole time.No she doesn't. Dooku's force enhanced strength allows him to exchange blows with Yoda. Ventress would go down in one hit.
Are you serious? H2H combat is a part of basic Jedi training. His force enhanced speed and strength is greater than Ventress and to top it all off he has way longer reach.
Same Ventress maimed Anakin's eye, so yeah he get trouble with Asajj.
For example, Mace simply stomped Asajj while Anakin get a scar from her, he also stalemated with Asajj in TCW as well.
Dooku's force potential is no where near at Yoda's or Sidious's level, not to mention Dooku is even older than Sidious. Dooku's force reserve is very limited, that is why his strength is also limited.
Old geezer Dooku can't fight in H2H combat against any young Jedi, or you can prove it otherwise with H2H combat feat from Old Dooku or any sole strength / durability feat, but I don't think Dooku has comparable feats to even Ventress.
Originally posted by Marco1907Old geezer Dooku can't fight in H2H combat against any young Jedi, or you can prove it otherwise with H2H combat feat from Old Dooku or any sole strength / durability feat, but I don't think Dooku has comparable feats to even Ventress.
Who cares about H2H when all the fights are Saber fights? And we've seen who gets the most lethal Physical attacks in Saber fights. It's almost always Dooku.
Kick floors Ventress twice in the Ventress/Opress vs Dooku fight.
Almost kicks Kenobi off the ledge, then wrecks his stomach in on Oba Diah.
Slam Kicks Skywalker against a wall a few meters away leaving him floored and helpless for a good 10 seconds in ROTS.
There's one time when Skywalker floored him with a kick, and one time Opress floored him physically, and both times the "physical" superiors payed for it with a good does of Force Lightning.
Originally posted by Marco1907
Can you explain to me why Anakin get ragdolled by Savage Opress here ? If he is stronger than Maul or Savage ?
Wait he got "physically" ragdolled? I didn't see that.
Just because Skywalker's fighting defensively alongside Kenobi against a Rage Enhanced Opress doesn't mean he's not as strong as Savage.
Not to mention Skywalker grew tremendously in power since then.
Dooku lacks H2H Combat and physical strength, but yeah it is unnecessary for his level telekinetic, especially since he is using force lightning as well. But that is only a problem against offensive physical fighters such as Anakin, Savage and Maul. That is his only weakness.
And Dooku's kicks are part of his sword play, that is not a martial art.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERWait he got "physically" ragdolled? I didn't see that.
Just because Skywalker's fighting defensively alongside Kenobi against a Rage Enhanced Opress doesn't mean he's not as strong as Savage.
Not to mention Skywalker grew tremendously in power since then.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dmbMZyvdYtM#t=39
Savage simply defeated Anakin in a physical contest here, and there was no force rage either.
Originally posted by Marco1907Anakin is not at another strength tier than Obi-Wan, he is just using his strength properly at offense, unlike the defensive fighter Obi-Wan. That is the sole reason why Anakin failed to overpower Obi-Wan at Mustafar. Because they are close in terms of physical abilities.
So you missed the part where Skywalker was forcing Kenobi backwards, and where Skywalker is physically choking Kenobi.
Jeez even if you don't buy that Skywalker has tremendous Raw Power, mentioned in depth and in detail in the ROTS Novel, surely you must understand he has a Cyborg Arm so is obviously "Physically" stronger than Kenobi!
It is beyond me how you keep quoting this One line from ROTS taking it completely out of context about Dooku apparently being "weak" to kinetic energy, yet completely ignore the paragraphs upon paragraphs describing just how much Immense Raw Power and Physical Strength Skywalker has, mentioned in the Same Damn Fight NO LESS.