Originally posted by DARTH POWER
I do agree with you, but I do think people need to differentiate between "Physical" strength and "Force Enhanced" strength.
What! (Lol) Not in the context of a duel.
Force enhanced strength is usually what determines a force users physical strength, assuming they have been taught and know how to utilize it in combat, or how well they can use it. Even a Zabrak force user such as Maul relies on the force for their physical strength, especially when fighting another force user. Maul even muses that, despite his increase of power, he found himself in awe of Sidious's saber prowess. In that context, Maul was referring to his own force enhanced physicality being greater than before. Their unaided force strength is hardly relevant in duels, other than giving some sentient beings somewhat of a head start over other sentient beings. Humans, for instance, don't have natural superhuman physical traits, unless they are force users. Plagueis mentions this to Palpatine during one of his training sessions, suggesting that Palpatine's force potential is the key to all of his superhuman physical abilities, and how well he develops them. In the SW universe, force enhanced physicality is natural for a force user, and it's one of the things that separates them from non- force users.
Is this why you and Arhael argue that Savage is stronger than Sidious? That's simply not true, as evident in their fight. This is due to Sidious's force strength.
Not necessarily. There are lesser force users that have more advanced augmentation because of their specialization--it is a skill, as is any other force power.
Though, as a general rule I would agree, the more powerful the Force user the more likely they are to be physically powerful as well, with exceptions.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not necessarily. There are lesser force users that have more advanced augmentation because of their specialization--it is a skill, as is any other force power.Though, as a general rule I would agree, the more powerful the Force user the more likely they are to be physically powerful as well, with exceptions.
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Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
What! (Lol) Not in the context of a duel.Force enhanced strength is usually what determines a force users physical strength, assuming they have been taught and know how to utilize it in combat, or how well they can use it. Even a Zabrak force user such as Maul relies on the force for their physical strength, especially when fighting another force user. Maul even muses that, despite his increase of power, he found himself in awe of Sidious's saber prowess. In that context, Maul was referring to his own force enhanced physicality being greater than before. Their unaided force strength is hardly relevant in duels, other than giving some sentient beings somewhat of a head start over other sentient beings. Humans, for instance, don't have natural superhuman physical traits, unless they are force users. Plagueis mentions this to Palpatine during one of his training sessions, suggesting that Palpatine's force potential is the key to all of his superhuman physical abilities, and how well he develops them. In the SW universe, force enhanced physicality is natural for a force user, and it's one of the things that separates them from non- force users.
Is this why you and Arhael argue that Savage is stronger than Sidious? That's simply not true, as evident in their fight. This is due to Sidious's force strength.
First I've not argued Opress being stronger than Sidious. In fact Sidious having strength > Opress' s makes perfect sense to me why people like Fisto can't trade more than a few blows with him. Because if it was all down to "speed that makes him invisible to all Jedi except Mace and Yoda" then he wouldn't even block 1 strike.
Second there's a Huge difference between Natural Physical strength and Force enhanced strength.
Natural physical strength is just there all the time. Whilst Force enhanced strength varies depending on how much you have left in your Force reserves and how much you reach through the Force with each strike (on top of how much you are capable of reaching through the Force).
And the examples of this are plenty:
Dooku sends Skywalker flying across the room with a Force enhanced Kick. You think he's THAT Strong with every strike of his?
Ventress gets into a blade lock with Opress from an inferior position. So is she always as Strong as Opress?
Kenobi gets into a blade lock with Maul and Opress combined.. And so on and so forth.
Heck the Shadow Conspiracy novel even specifically notes Sidious reaching through the Force to match Maul and Opress's blade lock. And the ROTS novel makes it very clear about Dooku force reserves wearing down and having to replenish them.
But even when Force reserves are down Opress is still a huge beast and Skywalker still has a Cyborg arm. That's the advantage to "Natural Physical" strength. It's there in spite of Force reserves and how much REACHING one is doing through the Force.
A Wookie Jedi for example would have a natural advantage when it comes to strength.
Originally posted by WildBantha88
Revanchiste i can't remember the last time you said something that was actually a good point. I feel like you should think before posting a response because then I might start taking you seriously.P.s. stap replacing S with Z
I will find a way to inztall my new keyboard.. I will...
Originally posted by DARTH POWER
First I've not argued Opress being stronger than Sidious. In fact Sidious having strength > Opress' s makes perfect sense to me why people like Fisto can't trade more than a few blows with him. Because if it was all down to "speed that makes him invisible to all Jedi except Mace and Yoda" then he wouldn't even block 1 strike.Second there's a Huge difference between Natural Physical strength and Force enhanced strength.
Natural physical strength is just there all the time. Whilst Force enhanced strength varies depending on how much you have left in your Force reserves and how much you reach through the Force with each strike (on top of how much you are capable of reaching through the Force).
And the examples of this are plenty:
Dooku sends Skywalker flying across the room with a Force enhanced Kick. You think he's THAT Strong with every strike of his?
Ventress gets into a blade lock with Opress from an inferior position. So is she always as Strong as Opress?
Kenobi gets into a blade lock with Maul and Opress combined.. And so on and so forth.
Heck the Shadow Conspiracy novel even specifically notes Sidious reaching through the Force to match Maul and Opress's blade lock. And the ROTS novel makes it very clear about Dooku force reserves wearing down and having to replenish them.
But even when Force reserves are down Opress is still a huge beast and Skywalker still has a Cyborg arm. That's the advantage to "Natural Physical" strength. It's there in spite of Force reserves and how much REACHING one is doing through the Force.
A Wookie Jedi for example would have a natural advantage when it comes to strength.
You do realize that all of those examples you used to differentiate force enhanced strength also applies to "natural strength," right? Just think about it. There is a difference, though: force enhancement makes a force user last longer, which means using their force enhanced strength won't tire them out nearly as quick as using their natural strength. That's why they rely on the force a lot more, and to differentiate them in the context of a duel, the way you're suggesting, is silly. I mean, you could if one's "natural strength" gives him an edge, but isn't it just easier in just saying the person is stronger? The advantage of being stronger is there regardless if it comes from, say, being zabrak.
Zidiouz 6 an elite member (but the problem iz with the canon.... He truzt too much de demonic money bullzit...)
However, during Sidious's duel with the zabrak bros, the "natural strength" of being zabraks wasn't an advantage for the bros in that duel. Sidious was stronger.
Yhea force enhancement can give the edge.. with zidiouz thiz a permanent edge.. But Force enhancement iz a fix valor zo...
Originally posted by Revanchiste
WIndu iz more direct...But If I take Darth Revan V.Z Gundak holy zhit Poor gundak... Revan anihilate an army of rancor XD.
Why windu don't uze the force to uze hiz environement intead of waiting hiz light zaber which are notr eally decide to moove hiz azz from the hand of the cultizt? And why kenobi iz waiting?Bazed on their phyzical and not feat (becauze ztrengh can be influented by the uze of force ztrenhg enhancement...) Maul have the edge becauze he iz a well trained zabrak...
Phyzical ztrengh iz more ztable.... Wher total ztrengh iz not a fix valor.. Zo feat are meaninglezz....
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I mean, you could if one's "natural strength" gives him an edge, but isn't it just easier in just saying the person is stronger? The advantage of being stronger is there regardless if it comes from, say, being zabrak.
Because it's not that simple, and there clearly is a difference in strength being "physical" and strength being "force enhanced", otherwise Ventress would never be able to get into a blade lock with Savage Opress from a disadvantageous position.
Clearly what's happening there is he's using more of his "physical" strength, while she's clearly reaching through the Force to block him. That doesn't make her as strong as Opress in general.
Mace Windu was constantly locking blades with Sidious in their fight, yet Darth Maul blocks Windu's 2 handed strike with 1 hand, while kick blitzing Secura.
With your simplistic argument of "there's no difference between Physical and Force Enhanced and A is simply stronger than B whose simply stronger than C" none of the numerous examples I've given would make any sense at all.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
However, during Sidious's duel with the zabrak bros, the "natural strength" of being zabraks wasn't an advantage for the bros in that duel. Sidious was stronger.
Yes but I'd say the Blade lock Maul and Sidious were in when Sidious overpowered Maul starting from an inferior position is the best example of that.
And not the scene where he temporarily holds off both brothers, which the novel confirms he had to strain and reach Out through the Force to do that.