Thanks, Leg.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Burial place, prison, and reliquary, the Dark Temple was built on the orders of the Emperor to seal away powerful artifacts and the Emperor's enemies, both alive and dead. The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.
Here you are, Beefy: Vitiate's aid.
My response to your last post is on the previous page, btw.
And as we discussed, the way in which you find the feat more impressive {Vitiate achieving physical immortality, Sidious performing unknown experiments, i.e. the outcome} was never contested.
Few million in 10 days with the aid of 8,000 Sith Lords versus 20 billion in years/decades with the aid of none?I'm still confident in my assessment.
Not if we adopt the rather conservative definition of aid you ascribe to my arguments.
I saw your original response here. I have more quotes if you object to the word "leech."
Originally posted by psmith81992
What? The argument originated from "what was more impressive", as I recall.
And according to you, what is "more impressive" about Vitiate's feat than Sidious's is what he did with it... which no one ever contested. All that was ever discussed was scope and scale.
Originally posted by psmith81992
That is your opinion. And I'm of the opinion that Vitiate's lack of aid in performing his own experiments is easily as impressive.
But he did have aid in his experiments, Beefy. He drew strength and knowledge from his captives in the Dark Temple as he conducted those esoteric rituals.
Originally posted by psmith81992
Captives? A few captives then I suppose? Maybe a hundred? Nowhere near 20 billion?
A number is never assigned. Could be more than a hundred, could be less. But you said that Vitiate performed his feat without aid. By your definition of aid, this is untrue.
Originally posted by psmith81992
Leach meant drain, not leech. Leech just means feed off of. Could be draining life, could be other things.
"Slowly but steadily, he used his dark Force powers to enslave the people on the world and drain their life energies to fuel his own vile experiments." {Byss and the Deep Core}
And according to you, what is "more impressive" about Vitiate's feat than Sidious's is what he did with it... which no one ever contested. All that was ever discussed was scope and scale.
But he did have aid in his experiments, Beefy. He drew strength and knowledge from his captives in the Dark Temple as he conducted those esoteric rituals.
"Slowly but steadily, he used his dark Force powers to enslave the people on the world and drain their life energies to fuel his own vile experiments." {Byss and the Deep Core}
Originally posted by psmith81992
You're missing the point. The discussion began with "what is more impressive", and evolved into "why". The former no longer exists and now we're just discussing the latter.
The why was almost always provided. I don't recall a failure to elaborate as to why people found Sidious's more impressive.
Originally posted by psmith81992
I guess he had aid with the new sources. Certainly not the same thing as 20 billion. His captives were some former sith lords.
Nor is conducting a ritual with 8,000 Sith Lords certainly not the same thing as leeching a planet by one's self.
Originally posted by psmith81992
Ok. It still doesn't change my stance. He spend years/decades draining his inhabitants. Theoretically, you can do some kind of math with Vitiate's numbers. A few million in 10 days. How much longer would 20 billion be? I'm not sure it's comparable but in theory it is.
Perhaps. But then you have to factor in the presence of 8,000 trained Sith Lords aiding Vitiate's efforts whereas Sidious did the legwork himself, which has always been a point of this comparison.
Nor is conducting a ritual with 8,000 Sith Lords certainly not the same thing as leeching a planet by one's self.
Perhaps. But then you have to factor in the presence of 8,000 trained Sith Lords aiding Vitiate's efforts whereas Sidious did the legwork himself, which has always been a point of this comparison.
Originally posted by psmith81992
It's not the same for reasons already outlined.
Originally posted by psmith81992
We'd have to know what "aid" they provided. But again, it's 10 days versus years/decades so then opinions differ as to which is more impressive.
We'd have to know what "aid" they provided in order to determine whether Vitiate could have accomplished the same thing unaided. But that's never been the question. He had 8,000 Sith Lords helping him with his feat. Sidious did not.
That's one of the reasons why many find Sidious's feat more impressive. If you disagree, that's fine. But here we are.
This debate is pretty pointless, since the Nathema ritual doesn't represent Vitiate's capabilities after it when he because vastly more powerful. Also the two examples have little in common and served completely different purposes. And of course, Sidious' Byss drain has utterly unknown factors, making a comparison speculative at best.
Originally posted by Nephthys
This debate is pretty pointless, since the Nathema ritual doesn't represent Vitiate's capabilities after it when he because vastly more powerful.
No one claimed it did.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Also the two examples have little in common and served completely different purposes.
Indeed.
Originally posted by Nephthys
And of course, Sidious' Byss drain has utterly unknown factors, making a comparison speculative at best.
The known factors provide the basis for the comparison. Sidious transformed a lush and fertile planet into one of the strongest dark side sites in the galaxy. He lured twenty billion inhabitants to the planet and then telepathically enslaved its population and used them as fodder for his dark side experiments.
It's an exceptionally impressive display of Force mastery and, with respect to scale, is the greatest display of telepathy in the EU. There's ample basis to be more impressed with it than with what Vitiate accomplished with Nathema.
@The_Tempest
Welcome.
That is an example of Emperor's draining actions. He continued to consume life-force of many individuals to grow in power.
Here is another:
Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.
Also, this is arguably the greatest display of telepathy:
The Sith Emperor seeks to shape all things to his will. His Children, individuals infused with part of his being, have been scattered throughout the Republic, knowingly–or unknowingly–manipulating events to the Emperor's advantage over the years. Above them all is the First Son of the Emperor, a master strategist placed within the Jedi Council itself. Cloaked in the identity of Master Syo Bakarn, the First Son has been hiding the Children from the Jedi for decades, playing a long game with the Republic. His actions suggest a man possessing remarkable patience, ruthlessness and power. However, as Sophia Farash claimed, Master Syo has been unaware of the First Son's existence–suggesting he and the First Son are two separate personas.
Emperor's children feat.
And of-course, Emperor have most impressive telepathic showings in combat situations.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
The known factors provide the basis for the comparison. Sidious transformed a lush and fertile planet into one of the strongest dark side sites in the galaxy. He lured twenty billion inhabitants to the planet and then telepathically enslaved its population and used them as fodder for his dark side experiments.It's an exceptionally impressive display of Force mastery and, with respect to scale, is the greatest display of telepathy in the EU. There's ample basis to be more impressed with it than with what Vitiate accomplished with Nathema.
There's no information on how he accomplished it, what methods he used (it probably isn't actually even telepathy at all), what aid he had when performing it or how long it took for him to do it. So it doesn't really impress me that much.
Originally posted by Nephthys
There's no information on how he accomplished it, what methods he used (it probably isn't actually even telepathy at all), what aid he had when performing it or how long it took for him to do it. So it doesn't really impress me that much.
mmm
You're right; on second thought, that's a pretty laem feat.
😂
Originally posted by Nephthys
That he's underrated? People like carthage, stigma and others say that he's worthless and can be easily blitzed by Anakin and up. He's hyped as an almost godlike being of pure dark power who whooped Revan in seconds, yet people hold more respect for the latter than him and suggest that without a nexus and prep he's a limp-wristed feeb. People routinely suggest that people like Sidious, Yoda, Caedus, Plagueis and even Talzin can stomp him. He's underrated by many. I don't know how you think I should establish that without extensively quoting past posts.
I think we can expect this trend to continue, thanks in no small part to your own modest efforts. 👆
We know exactly how he did it, he explained to Vader in a comic that the nexus of Byss itself drew on the life forces of it's laborer inhabitants, and he in turn feeds from that pool to extend the lifespan of his bodies. It's not something he does of his own power, it's simply him making creative use of a powerful nexus.
Then again, the DE sourcebook paints a different picture. So there is interpretation to be had.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I don't know about that; It's pretty obvious that the scene you just mentioned aboard the Emperor's space station in itself was intended to parallel Palpatine's in the Chancellor's office-it's clear that some level of parity is implied.
Vitiate used his most powerful combat attack, which was actually 20 seconds worth of lightning spamming, plus another charged attack just to KO his opponents. Sidious went at his opponents (the jedi council members) in an area they excel at (sabers) and wasted them far quicker than Vitiate did his opponents. Both methods of attack are incomparable. The set up was most likely meant to be very similar, but the outcome was very different, so I don't see how parity is implied given that the outcome (the fight) was very different.
In force showings, Sidious has easily dominated both Maul and Savage at the same time, in an area they excel at (TK). Savage himself has consistently flattened multiple force users with force waves, and Maul has consistently dominated Obi Wan (who isn't lacking in TK feats). Not to mention the ease in which Sidious manhandled Dooku from a distance of light years--Dooku being head and shoulders over most of the force users of his era. I'm more impressed with these feats from Sidious because he wasn't trying to defeat his victims, well the former two, not initially, otherwise he'd pressed another attack similar to what he did to Anakin during his confrontation with Yoda in the spirit plane.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
He does have a lack of ability in regards to physical combat, but I'm questioning how much that matters. Other sorcerers like Mother Talzin and Gethzerion could go toe to toe with Sidious, and I'd consider none of them to be Vitiate's equal.
It matters a lot, unless we are going to script fights. That's why I said, if Sidious closes in on Vitiate, which is a possibility considering Sidious's speed, then Sidious ends him in seconds, but if they go at it in a force contest then Vitiate has a chance to at hold him off and put up a fight. Mother Talzin held Sidious off on her own in the heart of her power, which is a place imbued with her personal magic, and she was whole again, but even then, her attack was being pressed back by Sidious', despite the fact that she attacked first. However, while I do believe Vitiate can make Sidious work for it as Talzin did, Talzin's feat against Sidious has no bearing on how well Vitiate would do. The power out put of Sidious lightning is greater than Vitiate's, and Talzin's feat does not belong to Vitiate. As for Geth, all that's said was that Sidious feared her power, which could have been for numerous difference reasons that we don't know about. I'm sure if Vitiate existed in his time he'd fear Vitiate's power, with Vitiate's his mastery of rituals and all. While not a product of his own personal power, those rituals do require a potent force user with exceptional command over the force to successfully perform, but it doesn't say much about how well he'd stand up against Sidious in a direct confrontation without out interference.
No, I don't think Palpatine can ragdoll Vitiate, but he is noticeably more powerful, even as of ROTS. His feats show it.
DE Sidious is a great deal more powerful than Vitiate. The raw power at his disposal and his command over it, makes him a far more powerful force user than Vitiate.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Curious--any examples?
Force storm. Without prep and rituals, Vitiate has done nothing that comes close. Even with prep, rituals and aid, Vitiate hasn't summoned anything equal to the power of Sidous force storm which can tear through space/time.