Originally posted by Nephthys
Legend, the definition of a shortcoming is to demonstrate an imperfection or to fail to meet a certain standard. So Revan definitely did demonstrate a shortcoming by coming up short against the Emperor.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Revan's plan was legitimately shit though. He just ran in there and hoped that they'd be able to beat him, without any kind of strategy or tactical advantage. Pure idiocy.
Revan's plan was to sneak into the Citadel, create a blockade to prevent reinforcements from aiding Emperor and gang-up on him with his companions to assassinate him. Unfortunately, Scourge foiled the plan with his betrayal.
What is the point of this thread? That Revan > all or that the drain can be "stopped?"
Only a very select few think that the Exile or any of the Triumvirate would beat Revan through conventional Jedi battles so this exchange doesn't change anything.
As for the drain which apparently people are devaluing, the email explicitly states that this is circumstantial. If Revan never left, sure he could probably find a defense. Maybe he goes to Rhen Var and talks to Ulic about his force drain defense. End of the day is, he didn't. Revan did not find ways to strategize against the drain and therefore is probably susceptible to it. The email only analyzes that Revan may have found a way if the setting had been different.
Originally posted by Nephthys
That's not the same as the drain seen in Kotor 2. Meetra specifically states that what Vitiate did was different and worse than the stuff in Kotor 2.
The ritual had obviously destroyed Nathema, snuffing out all life on the world. Lord Vitiate had offered his people hope, and instead had brought them a fate worse than death—utter eradication of life, existence, and even the Force.
Meetra was no expert on dark side sorcery, but it was safe to assume Vitiate not only survived the ritual, but emerged more powerful than ever. And with the destruction of everyone on Nathema—including his research team—he alone would have known the location of Dromund Kaas.
Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
Difference is that Emperor performed drain of such a scale and potency that he literally obliterated the entire biota of the planet, permanently damaged the environment of the planet, and consumed even the Force-energy surrounding the planet, leaving it a void in the galaxy.
Point is that ancients experimented with Force Drain powers and pushed boundaries with them.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Nihilus.
Sure but as the topic says it's Revan vs Traya and Meetra. Nihilus wasn't mentioned in the email though logically I suppose he should be included.
But then again like stated it's all circumstantial. If Revan found a way to be immune from the drain then Nihilius would have been weakened again if he tried it.
Originally posted by Based
What is the point of this thread? That Revan > all or that the drain can be "stopped?"Only a very select few think that the Exile or any of the Triumvirate would beat Revan through conventional Jedi battles so this exchange doesn't change anything.
As for the drain which apparently people are devaluing, the email explicitly states that this is circumstantial. If Revan never left, sure he could probably find a defense. Maybe he goes to Rhen Var and talks to Ulic about his force drain defense. End of the day is, he didn't. Revan did not find ways to strategize against the drain and therefore is probably susceptible to it. The email only analyzes that Revan may have found a way if the setting had been different.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your assumption is flawed unfortunately. Darth Traya have history of using Force Drain powers against opposition, she was also instrumental in transforming Darth Nihilus into a super-draining machine while training him in the ways of the Sith.Revan can defeat Traya because he have adequate raw power and command of the Force to counter her powers, and he is also likely to outsmart her.
But it is important to realize the fact that tactics (alone) are not going to make much difference in a confrontation.
As an analogy: Mara Jade Skywalker fought Darth Caedus on her terms and in a setting of her choice, and still lost. Caedus ended-up badly wounded in this confrontation because of his foolishness (lack of strategy) and overconfidence.
This statement from Mr. Chris is very telling:
"Revan was a master strategist as well as an extremely powerful Force wielder."
Mr. Chris is absolutely correct. Power, Command of the Force, and Tactics - all are important factors that influence the outcome of a confrontation.
Force Drain powers are not insta-win applications. They may swiftly destroy some individuals but super-strong individuals with excellent defensive capabilities are a different story.
Revan was an absolute master of defensive aspects of the Force with command of biological injury healing techniques, poison resistance techniques, advanced Tutaminis abilities, and advanced shielding techniques such as Protection Bubbles.
Revan likely knows how to defend against Force Drain powers which is not unusual as apparent from the example of Ulic-Qel Droma who had knowledge of countermeasures against such powers.
In-fact, Revan himself have ample command of Force Drain powers and can counter-drain opponents to replenish his energies, should the need arise. This is how Revan prevented his demise during the span of his extremely lengthy imprisonment and torture experiences from Emperor Vitiate in the maelstrom facility.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmKfEu2KGos&feature=player_detailpage#t=748
Difference between malak and Revan....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Chris Avellone's thoughts on Revan vs Darth Traya & Meetra Surik
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Your assumption is flawed unfortunately. Darth Traya have history of using Force Drain powers against opposition, she was also instrumental in transforming Darth Nihilus into a super-draining machine while training him in the ways of the Sith.Revan can defeat Traya because he have adequate raw power and command of the Force to counter her powers, and he is also likely to outsmart her.
But it is important to realize the fact that tactics (alone) are not going to make much difference in a confrontation.
As an analogy: Mara Jade Skywalker fought Darth Caedus on her terms and in a setting of her choice, and still lost. Caedus ended-up badly wounded in this confrontation because of his foolishness (lack of strategy) and overconfidence.
This statement from Mr. Chris is very telling:
"Revan was a master strategist as well as an extremely powerful Force wielder."
Mr. Chris is absolutely correct. Power, Command of the Force, and Tactics - all are important factors that influence the outcome of a confrontation.
Force Drain powers are not insta-win applications. They may swiftly destroy some individuals but super-strong individuals with excellent defensive capabilities are a different story.
Revan was an absolute master of defensive aspects of the Force with command of biological injury healing techniques, poison resistance techniques, advanced Tutaminis abilities, and advanced shielding techniques such as Protection Bubbles.
Revan likely knows how to defend against Force Drain powers which is not unusual as apparent from the example of Ulic-Qel Droma who had knowledge of countermeasures against such powers.
In-fact, Revan himself have ample command of Force Drain powers and can counter-drain opponents to replenish his energies, should the need arise. This is how Revan prevented his demise during the span of his extremely lengthy imprisonment and torture experiences from Emperor Vitiate in the maelstrom facility.
In the other hand Revan defeat Star forge Malak who at this point was much stronger than he was... So....
"Revan was an absolute master of defensive aspects of the Force with command of biological injury healing techniques, poison resistance techniques, advanced Tutaminis abilities, and advanced shielding techniques such as Protection Bubbles. "
Alleluia ! Alleluia AlleluiaLalleuiaAlleiuia !!!!
But Nihilus force drain have quasi no counter..
Drain have counter... But nihilus drain counter cannot really be teach.. You have to be immune tod rain like Yoda, have energy reserve like sidious Vitiate Plagueis...
Depending of theversion Revan have this reserve of power or not...
Nihilus drain is outclassing... It pass defnse because it is really powerfull....
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This:The ritual had obviously destroyed Nathema, snuffing out all life on the world. Lord Vitiate had offered his people hope, and instead had brought them a fate worse than death—utter eradication of life, existence, and even the Force.
Meetra was no expert on dark side sorcery, but it was safe to assume Vitiate not only survived the ritual, but emerged more powerful than ever. And with the destruction of everyone on Nathema—including his research team—he alone would have known the location of Dromund Kaas.
Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
Difference is that Emperor performed drain of such a scale and potency that he literally obliterated the entire biota of the planet, permanently damaged the environment of the planet, and consumed even the Force-energy surrounding the planet, leaving it a void in the galaxy.
Point is that ancients experimented with Force Drain powers and pushed boundaries with them.
I was thinking of a different quote from Meetra. But even so Vitiate's ritual is different from Nihilus and Traya's technique, which isn't a ritual at all, in both it's application and effect. The Kotor 2 drain never gave you immortality, in fact it ate away at Nihilus' body until it disintegrated.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Chris Avellone's thoughts on Revan vs Darth Traya & Meetra Surik
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDRevan can defeat Traya because he have adequate raw power and command of the Force to counter her powers, and he is also likely to outsmart her.
Most will agree, I don't see how the email changes anyone's perspective on this.
Force Drain powers are not insta-win applications. They may swiftly destroy some individuals but super-strong individuals with excellent defensive capabilities are a different story.
Yes but it first must be proven that they have these capabilities. All this email says is that Revan is smart enough to find it. I won't doubt that. But there is still no proof that such a defense is in his repertoire. Being intelligent and a master strategist doesn't make him omnipotent.
Revan was an absolute master of defensive aspects of the Force with command of biological injury healing techniques, poison resistance techniques, advanced Tutaminis abilities, and advanced shielding techniques such as Protection Bubbles.
This is all speculative that they can hold up against Kreia's technique. Most of these techniques such as bubbles or Tutaminis are commonly taught and if they were sufficient then Kreia wouldn't gloat of this technique of having no defense.
Revan likely knows how to defend against Force Drain powers which is not unusual as apparent from the example of Ulic-Qel Droma who had knowledge of countermeasures against such powers.
Again speculative. It's no far fetched but there's just no proof.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It's still a shortcoming. Plus there's the clear tactical idiocy of Revan's plan for taking Vitiate out to consider.
Revan new than he will be defeated....He see the future and seize the role than he have toplay.. He was seeking the emperor knowledge in fact...
I'm talking about the first encounter...
Originally posted by Nephthys
I was thinking of a different quote from Meetra. But even so Vitiate's ritual is different from Nihilus and Traya's technique, which isn't a ritual at all, in both it's application and effect. The Kotor 2 drain never gave you immortality, in fact it ate away at Nihilus' body until it disintegrated.
More importantly, you are failing to prove the differential aspect. You only have a quote from Traya to rely upon that the technique cannot be taught but learned from instinct and experience:
"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."
I think that you are focusing too much on the semantics and failing to factor-in the manipulative nature of the claimant.
What I gather from this assertion is that Traya was not interested in teaching Meetra Surik these powers because she risked creating another Nihilus with Surik due to the latter's condition.
SWTOR Encyclopedia explicitly reveals that ancient practitioners of the dark arts pioneered Force Drain powers.
Emperor Vitiate acquired many Force abilities with pure instincts, without formal training. His experiments with Force Drain powers produced most potent results on record.
More importantly, Emperor Vitiate was a superior adept in the matters of dark sorcery then Traya and Nihilus and this may have made difference in potential to cope with and control the effects of Force Drain powers for these practitioners. Nihilus's fallibility/vulnerability to effects of Force Drain powers was likely accelerated by his Wound condition.
Reminder:
Meetra was no expert on dark side sorcery, but it was safe to assume Vitiate not only survived the ritual, but emerged more powerful than ever. And with the destruction of everyone on Nathema—including his research team—he alone would have known the location of Dromund Kaas.
Taken from (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)
Also one of was wondering why traya go emotional while using drain ---> this is the awnser :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmKfEu2KGos&feature=player_detailpage#t=1472
Doubt weaken you by questioning thinking permantly you doubt.. That's what the emotion that heat you are important...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmKfEu2KGos&feature=player_detailpage#t=1725
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Ritual is just a method of expression to unleash a Force power; it enables manipulation of the Force on a greater scale and intensity then the normal method of expression because it is performed with relatively greater focus and exertion.More importantly, you are failing to prove the differential aspect. You only have a quote from Traya to rely upon that the technique cannot be taught but learned from instinct and experience:
"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."
I think that you are focusing too much on the semantics and failing to factor-in the manipulative nature of the claimant.
What I gather from this assertion is that Traya was not interested in teaching Meetra Surik these powers because she risked creating another Nihilus with Surik due to the latter's condition.
SWTOR Encyclopedia explicitly reveals that ancient practitioners of the dark arts pioneered Force Drain powers.
Emperor Vitiate acquired many Force abilities with pure instincts, without formal training. His experiments with Force Drain powers produced most potent results on record. Also, Emperor Vitiate was a superior adept in the matters of sorcery then Traya and Nihilus and this may have made difference in experience and control over Force Drain powers.
That its a ritual only reinforces how different it is. If it's not performed in the same way, it doesn't do the same things and it achieves different results, then its a different ****ing attack. Meetra explicitly states that Nathema is different to what she'd experienced previously. Every aspect is different, Legend.
I have Traya stating that, yes. Whereas you have absolutely nothing supporting your theories other than you really, desperately wanting them to be true. And Meetra already knows the freaking technique. That's the whole point of the game. She uses it unknowingly the whole time. So there's no point telling her that to keep her from learning a technique she already knows and is performing all the damn time.
I know you really, really, reeeeeeeeeeeally want Vitiate to be the best at everything ever but he just isn't and you should accept that.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Chris Avellone's thoughts on Revan vs Darth Traya & Meetra Surik
Originally posted by Based
All this email says is that Revan is smart enough to find it. I won't doubt that. But there is still no proof that such a defense is in his repertoire. Being intelligent and a master strategist doesn't make him omnipotent.
Uh, what? No he doesn't.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Chris Avellone's thoughts on Revan vs Darth Traya & Meetra Surik
Originally posted by Based
Most will agree, I don't see how the email changes anyone's perspective on this.
Originally posted by Based
Yes but it first must be proven that they have these capabilities. All this email says is that Revan is smart enough to find it. I won't doubt that. But there is still no proof that such a defense is in his repertoire. Being intelligent and a master strategist doesn't make him omnipotent.
"Revan was a master strategist as well as an extremely powerful Force wielder."
Tactical brilliance is not the only factor, Revan's immense power is also a factor.
Official information strengthens the argument of Mr. Chris even further:
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
These revelations from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan are very telling:"It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater then that of anyone else she had ever met."
"The Jedi's command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength."
"Like Revan, The Emperor understood the Force in ways Scourge never would."
---
Originally posted by Based
This is all speculative that they can hold up against Kreia's technique. Most of these techniques such as bubbles or Tutaminis are commonly taught and if they were sufficient then Kreia wouldn't gloat of this technique of having no defense.
Defensive applications are certainly commonly taught by Jedi and Sith but few are able to master them.
A Jedi may know how to conjure up a basic Force shield to bolster his resistance against some forms of external threats but few have demonstrated the power to surround themselves with a powerful (visible) protection bubble that can repel most forms of external threats.
Similarly, a Jedi may have acquired command of Tutaminis abilities to counter some forms of external threats but few have demonstrated the capability to absorb Sith lightning and/or other forms of lethal energies and redirect or dissipate them with sheer raw power by transforming their bodies into conduits of Force energy from within.
Originally posted by Based
Again speculative. It's no far fetched but there's just no proof.
Revan have demonstrated superior understanding of defensive aspects of the Force then Ulic-Qel Droma holistically. More importantly, Revan have actual history of being subjected to Force Drain powers from his opponents such as Darth Bandon, Darth Malak and Emperor Vitiate.