Originally posted by Nephthys
Bad example. That's too indirect. Vitiate directly mindjacked Revan and made him go back and fvck shit up. It's totally different.
Revan became his own agent once he discovered the Star Forge. Those accomplishments are his own.
Edit: I'm not saying Revan accomplished more than Vitiate BTW.
Originally posted by ares834
Revan became his own agent once he discovered the Star Forge. Those accomplishments are his own.
He was still performing the Emperor's will, he just saw it as his own.
Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan's interpretation cannot form a retcon over a major plotline. 👇
Revan's opinion on his own actions based on his own memories should be held high as evidence. I'm pretty sure his statements are stronger than Kreia and HK's.
But hey, if you really want to check why not drop your pal Karpyshan a line. I'm sure he'll agree with his own words.
Originally posted by Sinious
Krayt was given much better resources when he began his rule.
Not at all. Vitiate "began his rule" as the ruler of an entire planet and seized the remnants of the Sith empire and rebuilt in secrecy. Krayt started from absolute scratch as the ruler of nothing and nadda.
Originally posted by Sinious
Vitiate carried out an impossible task and at the end, he reached a level of existence far beyond Krayt.
Ease up with your strokes; you don't want friction burn. Vitiate was the ruler of an entire world, axed 8k of his rivals in a ritual, seized their assets and spent a thousand years building his empire in secret. That's pretty damn impressive, no doubt. Krayt started out as a no-name Jedi in the galactic backwater and his Sith education was the equivalent of a University of Phoenix online education. Still, he managed to create his own Sith order, populated their ranks, manipulated events for decades between the GA and Empire, and assumed the throne and ruled a greater swath of galactic territory than anybody but Palpatine. And he too achieved a state of immortality. 👆
What Vitiate did was impressive, just not as impressive or as efficient as Krayt's seizure. Nor did Krayt enjoy a position of advantage like Vitiate did.
Originally posted by Sinious
But I guess yours is a respectable opinion as well.
Thx.
Originally posted by Nephthys
He was still performing the Emperor's will, he just saw it as his own.Revan's opinion on his own actions based on his own memories should be held high as evidence. I'm pretty sure his statements are stronger than Kreia and HK's.
But hey, if you really want to check why not drop your pal Karpyshan a line. I'm sure he'll agree with his own words.
👆 x 10
Nephthys
Revan is only a Sith in the first place because of Vitiate. All of his accomplishments since then are merely extensions of Vitiate's own.
That's weak, bro. Now if you want to say {and can prove} that Revan's accomplishments are an extension of Vitiate's own because he authored them himself and merely used Revan a la Sidious & Dooku, that's one thing. But to say well Vitiate made Revan a Sith so literally everything Revan ever did is as attributable to Vitiate as it is to Revan and maybe moreso is an incredible stance {literally}.
Murder is not the only evil thing a person can do but he caused the death of several people by accident but didn't feel bad about it at all. He, from the day he was born cared for power and nothing else. "If not power, then nothing." his words at the age of 17. His own father considered him to be an unnatural being. The dark side of the force was present within him in a so sinister and sophisticated manner that even Darth Plagueis himself couldn't read through his mind and sense the force in him when they first met. Should I go on?
Originally posted by ares834
And as it says they "twisted" them. Sure, Vitiate sent them to conquer the galaxy for him, but in he end they were the conquering the galaxy for themselves.
They thought they were, but the were still partially under his control and still doing his bidding. Their actions were directly a result of Vitiate's influence over them and thus merely an extension of his own accomplishments.
Originally posted by psmith81992
No, we get the gist. And the point is, he did absolutely nothing until he was introduced to Plagueis, so your point is irrelevant.
Again, are you saying that Revan and Sidious were equally evil by nature? Revan ended up being the champion of the republic where Sidious would most likely wouldn't even be accepted by the jedi. Sidious would be an evil/corrupt politician. The only thing that would be missing is his force powers.
Revan on the other hand, became a victim of circumstances at first and then he got mindraped by the Emperor on top of that. If you can't see the difference between these two stories, I don't know what to tell you tbh, no offense.
Originally posted by Nephthys
They thought they were, but the were still partially under his control and still doing his bidding. Their actions were directly a result of Vitiate's influence and thus merely an extension of his own accomplishments.
They were only partially doing his bidding. They were conquering the galaxy, sure, but they weren't conquering it for Vitiate but rather themselves. Hell, they were preparing the galaxy for the true Sith" invasion who, at the time, they had no memory of. Really, Vitiate's only accomplishment in this mess is creating a very formidable enemy.
And Palpatine's accomplishments were a direct result of Plagues's training. So I guess he gets credit for Palpatine conquering the galaxy, right?
Again, are you saying that Revan and Sidious were equally evil by nature? Revan ended up being the champion of the republic where Sidious would most likely wouldn't even be accepted by the jedi. Sidious would be an evil/corrupt politician. The only thing that would be missing is his force powers.Revan on the other hand, became a victim of circumstances at first and then he got mindraped by the Emperor on top of that. If you can't see the difference between these two stories, I don't know what to tell you tbh, no offense.
Originally posted by ares834
They were only partially doing his bidding. They were conquering the galaxy, sure, but they weren't conquering it for Vitiate but rather themselves. Hell, they were preparing the galaxy for the true Sith" invasion who, at the time, they had no memory of. Really, Vitiate's only accomplishment in this mess is creating a very formidable enemy.And Palpatine's accomplishments were a direct result of Plagues's training. So I guess he gets credit for Palpatine conquering the galaxy, right?
How could they be preparing for an invasion they had no memory of? That doesn't make any sense. It's been retconned. That they were only partially doing his bidding doesn't detract from the fact that they were only doing it because he made them do it. Their actions were the result of his instruction and influence. If nothing else, Vitiate stomping Revan and Malak, turning them and getting them to attack the Republic are completely his own actions and still much more impressive than Revan's. Also lol, Darth Revan was never a threat to Vitiate. He was still partially under his control. As soon as they're in the same room he's completely back under him. Darth Revan would have served his master the galaxy on a silver platter.
Actually, shouldn't Plagueis get some of the credit for the Grand Plan? Did he not contribute towards it in a significant way? Or at least give Palpatine the tools to make it happen? Just training him obviously doesn't factor in but shouldn't that stuff count?
Originally posted by psmith81992
The differences you're stating are irrelevant if one does not act on his "nature". My point stands.
Well thats the point. He did act on them. He was too young and had to follow certain protocols to secure himself a place of power and influence in his society so he didn't go out and do crazy things like torturing people but he did what he could do in his circumstances. He was already an evil being.
Plagueis triggered certain feelings in Sidious true, but Sidious massacred his entire family without the teachings of the sith.
That they have no memory of the Sith doesn't mean they completely forgot about some threat in the unknown regions. Plus we've got multiple sources saying they were preparing for an invasion, one of which is newer than the novel and therefore retconning it. And nah, stomping two powerful dark Jedi and making them your pawns is not a bigger accomplishment than conquering a third of the galaxy and nearly destroying the Jedi.
Do you have any evidence that Darth Revan would instantly return fully to Vitiate's control? The fact that he doesn't when he regains his memories certainly suggests otherwise.
And sure, Plags gets some of the "credit" but they are ultimately Sheev's accomplishments. It's the same with Vitate and Revan.
Originally posted by ares834
That they have no memory of the Sith doesn't mean they completely forgot about some threat in the unknown regions. Plus we've got multiple sources saying they were preparing for an invasion, one of which is newer than the novel and therefore retconning it. And nah, stomping two powerful dark Jedi and making them your pawns is not a bigger accomplishment than conquering a third of the galaxy and nearly destroying the Jedi.Do you have any evidence that Darth Revan would instantly return fully to Vitiate's control? The fact that he doesn't when he regains his memories certainly suggests otherwise.
And sure, Plags gets some of the "credit" but they are ultimately Sheev's accomplishments. It's the same with Vitate and Revan.
Except the novel states they were trying to crush all resistance, so still retconned. Whats the newer source? It'd have to be pretty unquestionable and explicit to overrule Revan own damn words about his own actions. And demonstrating superiority over someone who then went on to do all that at your behest is a better accomplishment than Revan failing to conquer the galaxy. Vitiate almost destroyed the Republic without even having to stand up.
😬 If he's still partially under his control I'm pretty sure he's not going to be able to resist the Big Man directly pushing him fully back under. He doesn't when he regains his memories because he's completely free from Vitiate's influence then, was more powerful and had prepared a defense. None of which hold for Darth Revan.
No, because everything Revan did was merely a warped version of Vitiate's instructions. It's not the same as Palpatine doing stuff completely independently of Plagueis. Revan was still under Vitiate's control and still performing his will.