Magneto Vs The Ray

Originally posted by leonidas
no chance he is high herald. i think low herald is pretty fair actually. he could reach mid i guess--the boundary between low and mid can be blurry.

also, accidentally going back in time is supposed to HELP his case....? shows a lack of control imo. abhi, do you have the dr polaris fight? can't recall if i've seen it. i think i remember one where he helped the jla, but i don't remember the details if that's one of them....

He was a young, inexperienced, and his father trolled him more then trained him. But that's irrelevant to the feat.

Flash couldn't go back in time in the early to mid 90's. Superman couldn't do it (And he still can't). So yeah, I think it's damned impressive for a DC character to display that level of speed.

(a) i never commented on the 'impressiveness' of the feat, only it's relevance to this thread. (b) we'll disagree regardless. it's impressive in a sense that he reached that speed, sure. but if he can't control it, i don't see how it has any bearing on anything at all. did he learn to time travel by design later, or was that a one time accidental feat? if he did, then it's pretty impressive--still irrelevant in the sense that it would be utterly ooc for him to try blitzing at ftl speeds--but it would be more impressive were he shown to control the power.....

Originally posted by leonidas
(a) i never commented on the 'impressiveness' of the feat, only it's relevance to this thread. (b) we'll disagree regardless. it's impressive in a sense that he reached that speed, sure. but if he can't control it, i don't see how it has any bearing on anything at all. did he learn to time travel by design later, or was that a one time accidental feat? if he did, then it's pretty impressive--still irrelevant in the sense that it would be utterly ooc for him to try blitzing at ftl speeds--but it would be more impressive were he shown to control the power.....

👆

Originally posted by Golgo13
Not sure. Photon was able to get through his shields and she's about FTL. Supposedly, she has done this a few times.

Losing to Arthur Light isn't a low showing, considering what he has done. He can control ALL light. Even mystic based energy as well. I'd say he's about as skilled as Magneto, maybe even more so, because of his versatility. This is a guy who also took down Superman once, IIRC.

Even during the time she went pass his shields, she still couldn't stop him, especially with light based attacks. Magneto reactions fts are insane. He could more than likely counter just like he did against Spectrum and Northstar.

Originally posted by leonidas
(a) i never commented on the 'impressiveness' of the feat, only it's relevance to this thread. (b) we'll disagree regardless. it's impressive in a sense that he reached that speed, sure. but if he can't control it, i don't see how it has any bearing on anything at all. did he learn to time travel by design later, or was that a one time accidental feat? if he did, then it's pretty impressive--still irrelevant in the sense that it would be utterly ooc for him to try blitzing at ftl speeds--but it would be more impressive were he shown to control the power.....

He repeated the feat two other times, until he finally got a message from himself in the future on how to hit his time.

He also traveled between star syetems under his own power.

He's not a GL, with a built in navigation system, nor does he have Flash's experience with navigating the time stream. But there's a world of difference between charging through someone at ftl speeds (Or blasting them), and navigating time and space at ftl speeds.

so, that's cool, but still--are you telling me it would be in character for him to blitz someone at ftl speeds? because if you are, my next point would be to prove it, show him doing that to anyone. if you can't prove it, then, cool as it is (because i did not know he was that fast) it still has no bearing on this match...

Magneto besting Dazzler is cool and all, but she doesn't act and think at FTL speeds. Northstar isn't nearly as fast a Ray, so...

Originally posted by leonidas
so, that's cool, but still--are you telling me it would be in character for him to blitz someone at ftl speeds? because if you are, my next point would be to prove it, show him doing that to anyone. if you can't prove it, then, cool as it is (because i did not know he was that fast) it still has no bearing on this match...

Are you asking for examples of him attacking, where it's explicately stated he's blitzing at ftl speeds?

Because they don't exist. I could show you examples of him moving at ftl, and I could show you examples of him charging at Superman (Who he thought was his father, messing with him) or blasting Triumph with way more force then necessary (Enough to make Triumph, who provoked him, admit he forgot just how powerful Ray is.)

I can prove he's basically a punk who doesn't know when to hold back, proving he won't hesitate to "shoot first", and hit hard.

But I can't prove he's specifically attacking at FTL speeds, no.

But Golgo has a point, can YOU prove whenever Magneto fends off a ftl capable character, that they're attacking at FTL speeds?

If the answer is no, then the weight of evidence goes against Magneto. The rules work to the benefit of speedsters, who rarely attack at their top speeds. The Ray's, while moving at his top speed, was able to see the light entity. He was able to maintain his position around the sun, instead of flying straight off the edge of it into space. His control is proven good enough to charge at Magneto while he's directly in front of him, without losing his sense of direction or missing his mark. Further, while he passed Earth's solar system when traveling at FTL speeds in space, he KNEW he missed his mark. He does have some ability to see what's happening at ftl speeds, even if his control isn't perfect.

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm not arguing he can dance around him like Spidey can to Hulk. Only that in a quick draw scenario, he should have the upper hand in initiating first strike, and be capable of hitting his mark.

Originally posted by Golgo13
Magneto besting Dazzler is cool and all, but she doesn't act and think at FTL speeds. Northstar isn't nearly as fast a Ray, so...

Is he one shorting Eric?

Originally posted by carver9
Is he one shorting Eric?

Maybe at his best, but not on average. I could see this going either way, TBH. If what Zop said is true, Magneto is going to have a hard time taking him out for good, since Ray has reconstructed himself from being destroyed from Anti-Matter.

Here's his fight with Lobo:

Continued:

Originally posted by cdtm
Are you asking for examples of him attacking, where it's explicately stated he's blitzing at ftl speeds?

Because they don't exist. I could show you examples of him moving at ftl, and I could show you examples of him charging at Superman (Who he thought was his father, messing with him) or blasting Triumph with way more force then necessary (Enough to make Triumph, who provoked him, admit he forgot just how powerful Ray is.)

I can prove he's basically a punk who doesn't know when to hold back, proving he won't hesitate to "shoot first", and hit hard.

But I can't prove he's specifically attacking at FTL speeds, no.

But Golgo has a point, can YOU prove whenever Magneto fends off a ftl capable character, that they're attacking at FTL speeds?

If the answer is no, then the weight of evidence goes against Magneto. The rules work to the benefit of speedsters, who rarely attack at their top speeds. The Ray's, while moving at his top speed, was able to see the light entity. He was able to maintain his position around the sun, instead of flying straight off the edge of it into space. His control is proven good enough to charge at Magneto while he's directly in front of him, without losing his sense of direction or missing his mark. Further, while he passed Earth's solar system when traveling at FTL speeds in space, he KNEW he missed his mark. He does have some ability to see what's happening at ftl speeds, even if his control isn't perfect.

Just to be perfectly clear, I'm not arguing he can dance around him like Spidey can to Hulk. Only that in a quick draw scenario, he should have the upper hand in initiating first strike, and be capable of hitting his mark.

well, bending lasers and energy attacks aren't susceptible to changes of speed. those types of attacks simply move at light speed.

even in that lobo fight (which was pretty cool) he was physical a great deal of time and lobo was able to grab him. all mags needs to do is raise a shield. in the entire history of comics no one has ko'd him before he could raise a shield.... and by your own statements, even if he somehow did harness all this speed, there's no guarantee he'd hit mags. i think it FAR more likely he'd attack at a speed he could control with certainty. imo mags would almost certainly have time to raise a shield, from there, it's simply a matter of who you think is the better manipulator. you've stressed at times his lack of training and discipline--those are skills mags has over almost anyone. maybe he loses a quickdraw but i think once the battle starts, mags skill, experience and feats all point towards him taking this match.

Would the shield stop Ray's energy blast, though? (At "default" settings?)

I mean, he's supposed to be made of light. In theory, photonic attacks should slip through a transparent shield the same way sunlight does.

The shield protects him from Dazzler's attacks at 'default' settings.

Comics, I guess.

Right, forgot about Dazzler. >_<

That settles that, then.

I'll see about putting up a few more scans, but I don't think there's much left that's going to change anyone's mind at this point. Ray simply doesn't have the history to compete against an X character like Magneto.

Guess the fight pretty much comes down to where you place Magneto's reactions/durability, against Ray's ability to survive Mag's em powers, just like it did before my scans...

Originally posted by leonidas
no chance he is high herald. i think low herald is pretty fair actually. he could reach mid i guess--the boundary between low and mid can be blurry.

also, accidentally going back in time is supposed to HELP his case....? shows a lack of control imo. abhi, do you have the dr polaris fight? can't recall if i've seen it. i think i remember one where he helped the jla, but i don't remember the details if that's one of them....

Originally posted by Existere
Magneto has a couple pretty ridiculous reaction feats, including seemingly raising his shields after Dazzler fires a light attack (iirc anyways, it's been a couple years since I read the whole scene).

He also has some ridiculous durability feats though, especially to energy attacks. I don't think it's utterly impossible for Ray to win this fight, but I do think that Magneto has the edge here, and should take a strong majority.

Originally posted by cdtm
Right, forgot about Dazzler. >_<

That settles that, then.

I'll see about putting up a few more scans, but I don't think there's much left that's going to change anyone's mind at this point. Ray simply doesn't have the history to compete against an X character like Magneto.

Guess the fight pretty much comes down to where you place Magneto's reactions/durability, against Ray's ability to survive Mag's em powers, just like it did before my scans...

Yeah it depends on if Magneto can successfully take out a energy being on Ray's magnitude. What is Magnetos track record against something like that?

The dazzler scene was explicitly an illusion created by Jean.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=14533837

Just a comment on the scene with Magneto reacting to Northstar's attack. He caught him and claimed Northstar was "nowhere near as fast as his son." Which is 100% bullsh|t.

The writer was an idiot so take that into consideration when discussing whether Magneto would react in time to a light speed blitz from a herald level being (aka Ray).