Originally posted by -K-M-
Your comment has offended me. Now I must post an article about it on my blog (of course just my side of the story)
I'm going to spam Twitter and Tumblr about how KMC promotes bigotry and discrimination until your post is removed and I get a public apology. Also your avatar and signature are male, which supports the oppressive Patriarchy that is raping our society. In other words, you're promoting rape culture.
Originally posted by krisblaze
Well, it didn't take me long to find covers where Batman is stripped of agency.http://www.comicvine.com/batman-705-eye-of-the-beholder-part-two-see-no-evi/4000-249177/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-674-batman-dies-at-dawn/4000-124117/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-662-grotesk-conclusion/4000-115087/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-585-measure-for-measure/4000-98700/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-529-contagion-part-6-tears-of-blood/4000-42265/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-535-the-ogre-and-the-ape/4000-42854/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-540-the-spectre-of-vengeance-part-1-gotham-/4000-43454/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-546-major-arcana-part-3-hell-to-pay/4000-44053/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-548-the-penguin-returns-part-one-burning-fa/4000-44266/Here's one where Bruce is crying:
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/6/67663/3754885-603.jpgHere's a bonus sadman:
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-528-two-face-part-2-the-schismed-face/4000-42169/
http://www.comicvine.com/batman-558-dying-city/4000-45326/
Sorry, but on none of them do we see a parallel for Barbara's helpless expression. Even though she's not visibly bound or restrained on the cover (unlike Batman, who's chained, tied up or being swallowed by the Spectre himself in those covers), the implication is she's helpless & terrified in the hands of the Joker. Hell, the Tony Daniel cover, despite the blood Batman has a savage grin of defiance on his face, not a fearful one.
Originally posted by krisblaze
I also think Batman got a bit teary when he found "attraction" in Joker's eyes.Meanwhile, this cover is okay:
http://cdn.avatar-press.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/CrossedBad16Torture.jpg?100bf3
Originally posted by roughrider
Sorry, but on none of them do we see a parallel for Barbara's helpless expression. Even though she's not visibly bound or restrained on the cover (unlike Batman, who's chained, tied up or being swallowed by the Spectre himself in those covers), the implication is she's helpless & terrified in the hands of the Joker. Hell, the Tony Daniel cover, despite the blood Batman has a savage grin of defiance on his face, not a fearful one.
They are pictures where Batman is without agency, which was the complaint.
Batman is also being explicitly tortured in many of those covers.
Women cry more often than men.
That's not sexism, that's biology.
Originally posted by krisblazeDo you think the cover references Killing Joke?
I also disagree, but do not respect smurph.
If DC collectively decides that they want Harley Quinn to be chopped into little pieces and served to Robin, then that's their right. It's their characters, their right.Totally.
I think it's also the right of anybody to complain about this cover, or any of the ones you've posted.
Complaints didn't cause DC to 'self-censor'. Readers should be able to vocalize that they think a line has been crossed, even if it's an arbitrary one that they've drawn in the sand.
Originally posted by krisblazeCool.
We agree, but the complaints are not grounded in any consistent or logical criticism. Like in PRs link.And jokers in his holiday gear, so I assume its inreference to KJ
I personally don't agree with a lot of what is said in the link Pr posted. I think there is an argument to be made, I don't think the author of that blog is doing it very well.
I also don't really know if I agree with any line of thinking that concludes 'the cover is offensive', or 'that cover shouldn't be published!'. As I said earlier, I do think that gender plays in to the depiction of Batgirl's emotions, and I don't think that the depiction feels in line with her current character. I don't really know how I feel about it beyond that; the cover may or may not be problematic.
That's why I was appreciating the convo between Q and Pr.
Originally posted by -Pr-Of course. We all have different perspectives and we don't get anything out of acting dismissive towards reasonable responses.
I'm glad we can agree to disagree so cordially.
Originally posted by Existere
Cool.I personally don't agree with a lot of what is said in the link Pr posted. I think there is an argument to be made, I don't think the author of that blog is doing it very well.
I also don't really know if I agree with any line of thinking that concludes 'the cover is offensive', or 'that cover shouldn't be published!'. As I said earlier, I do think that gender plays in to the depiction of Batgirl's emotions, and I don't think that the depiction feels in line with her current character. I don't really know how I feel about it beyond that; the cover may or may not be problematic.
That's why I was appreciating the convo between Q and Pr. Of course. We all have different perspectives and we don't get anything out of acting dismissive towards reasonable responses.
Originally posted by Spawningpool😉
Yes we can all have our own opinions... Even if you are completely wrong
I think sorting between which opinions are totally absurd and which are reasonable isn't always obvious, and requires open conversation. That conversation can't effectively take place in the presence of harassment and threats - empty or otherwise.
And so, the cover got pulled.
Originally posted by Existere
😉I think sorting between which opinions are totally absurd and which are reasonable isn't always obvious, and requires open conversation. That conversation can't effectively take place in the presence of harassment and threats - empty or otherwise.
And so, the cover got pulled.
Originally posted by Existere
Of course. We all have different perspectives and we don't get anything out of acting dismissive towards reasonable responses.
This. This topic and the related topics about similar things are a discussion worth having regarding comics, games and everything else. The various sides are all too quick to get dismissive and hostile, and I get it people feel passionate about it often feel their hobbies or views are being threatened (this goes to both sides, the so called "progressives" are just as guilty in regards to jumping on people). But we need to actually talk about these things and really explain each others sides without the hostility. Maybe nothing changes but maybe it does, at the very least we have a better understanding of why the other person feels the way they do. And that's always a good thing.
Ok...I am not trying to start shit here, but I only noticed insult slinging and rage posting from one side in this thread. Let's not try and dodge culpability with the "well they do it too" thing. The "feminist" stance was demonized right from the start, in the title.
Like Smurph, I don't follow tumblr, so maybe I am missing the rage from the other side. Regardless, it shouldn't affect behavior in this thread. Aside from Pr, many of your posts resemble the negatively charged sentiments you claim your opposition makes.
The cover is a crucial selling point in the individual issue. Whatever people may think about what the Joker's motivations are, the message put out by that over implies rape of some kind. Show me a cover (not individual panels, a front cover) where a male hero has the terrified expression of a soon-to-be rape victim. Not in peril of death, but a fate that has them crying about what's to come. I don't think we'll find one, because it's considered unmanly by the male hero to appear so weak on the cover.
Marvel's last misstep with things like this was probably Carol Danvers 35 years ago, and Chris Claremont fought to get that fixed. DC is the one with a bit more rapey culture, thanks to the legacy of Alan Moore and Identity Crisis.
Originally posted by Existere
Cool.I personally don't agree with a lot of what is said in the link Pr posted. I think there is an argument to be made, I don't think the author of that blog is doing it very well.
I also don't really know if I agree with any line of thinking that concludes 'the cover is offensive', or 'that cover shouldn't be published!'. As I said earlier, I do think that gender plays in to the depiction of Batgirl's emotions, and I don't think that the depiction feels in line with her current character. I don't really know how I feel about it beyond that; the cover may or may not be problematic.
That's why I was appreciating the convo between Q and Pr. Of course. We all have different perspectives and we don't get anything out of acting dismissive towards reasonable responses.
👆
Originally posted by StyleTime
Ok...I am not trying to start shit here, but I only noticed insult slinging and rage posting from one side in this thread. Let's not try and dodge culpability with the "well they do it too" thing. The "feminist" stance was demonized right from the start, in the title.Like Smurph, I don't follow tumblr, so maybe I am missing the rage from the other side. Regardless, it shouldn't affect behavior in this thread. Aside from Pr, many of your posts resemble the negatively charged sentiments you claim your opposition makes.
It's borne of experiencing so much shit slinging that you're almost drowning in it. People like Kris for example, have seen the same shit I have, but I'm just too nice to be a **** about it.
I've seen this kind of behaviour before, and it comes across as turning a legitimate issue in to something way beyond what it should be, at least from my pov.
Originally posted by roughrider
The cover is a crucial selling point in the individual issue. Whatever people may think about what the Joker's motivations are, the message put out by that over implies rape of some kind. Show me a cover (not individual panels, a front cover) where a male hero has the terrified expression of a soon-to-be rape victim. Not in peril of death, but a fate that has them crying about what's to come. I don't think we'll find one, because it's considered unmanly by the male hero to appear so weak on the cover.Marvel's last misstep with things like this was probably Carol Danvers 35 years ago, and Chris Claremont fought to get that fixed. DC is the one with a bit more rapey culture, thanks to the legacy of Alan Moore and Identity Crisis.
Genuine question: What about rape being implied (for those that believe it's implied) makes it sexist?
Men can and have been raped in comics, in ways far more graphic and traumatising than a cover could ever imply without actually showing it. Or do you honestly believe that it being a cover somehow elevates it past anything that might happen within the comic?
Invisible Man getting raped to death is nothing compared to tears on a comic cover, because everyone knows tears are directly connected to rape.
Because Joker is a serial rapist. As opposed to a murderer like the gun and the finger to the head implies. And rape is a worse very very vague implication than the very real and present threat of murder.
Via a ****ing bullet to the head from a revolver.
I mean, whatever sexist. That's alright even though men heroes get their lives ruined on covers all the time. But the rape is a god damned stretch. You think if Batgirl was a real character she'd worry more about his penis than getting shot in the spine again? Even if he did rape her. Do people honestly think her tears would be from fear of rape?
