Originally posted by Nephthys
Yes, she also resists Sel Makor's influence. Although the other three Force users are all very strong in that regard as well. Nox and Wrath can resist the Dread Masters (who admittedly may have been off their game) and the Barsen'thor can resist the First Son.
Don't know why you hype Sel Makor's TP so much when every single Protag defended their minds against him.
Better late than never tbh.
Originally posted by NephthysThere exists no technique that makes you resistant to mental domination or probing, so your essentially saying that Scourge's TP/resilience was too great for the Emperor to overcome.
Scourge was taught a technique specifically to protect him mind from Vitiate. You wanted a reason why Vitiate never sensed his deception, there you go.
Figures.
Unfortunately Vader is Scourge's superior in every way, and would have superior telepathic barriers to boot.
And not if Scourge is protecting his thoughts. And Vitiate never had a reason to try to find out the truth, Scourge was his most loyal servant. Sidious always knew Vader hated him for ruining his life.Scourge had just been involved in a plot to betray and murder the Emperor. There is your reason.
Regardless, do you really think Sidious actively monitors Vader's thoughts 24/7? No. He just knows. Just like powerful Force Users know when a presence enters the vicinity, even if they are not looking for them.
Sidious caught whiff of Vader's betrayal from light years away, the Sith Emperor failed to smell the stench of deception literally sitting beneath his nose for 300 years.
All he did was brush Scourge's mind. He didn't attack him or do anything damaging he just exposed Scourges mind to his, gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self. If his mind is so corrupt that thats all it takes then obviously its inadvertent.With the deliberate attempt to harm. Yet consider the number of individuals exposed to the Emperor's mind in much more profound ways but have not gone insane:
[list=1][*]Every known member of the Emperor's Hand, bar Servant Two. All of these individuals have a direct and permanent mental link with the Emperor's mind. And yet they are sane, capable, functioning life forms.
[*]Exal Kressh, the Emperor's apprentice. She two shared a link with the Emperor's mind, and when she went rogue the Emperor made repeated attempts to torment her, she shut him out (unlike Vader, another point to Sidious), retaining her sanity and her fierce independence.
[*]The Imperial Guard. Ever member of the Imperial Guard was brought before the Emperor to be bonded with his mind, permanently. And yet - despite being all non-Force sensitives - are sane, functioning, capable life forms.
[*]The Children of the Emperor. Linked with the Emperor in infancy and yet retained their sanity, some remaining totally unaware of the Emperor's presence, some even broken free from his control with no lasting side effects.[/list]
It seems obvious from these examples that the Emperor is able to touch the minds of others without seriously damaging them, or damaging them at all. And the fact remains that non-intrusive mental probing pales in comparison to a permanent mental link, and mental attacks made through that link.
I'm afraid this notion that Scourge would be permanently scarred by this small act of intrusion just does not hold water.
They haven't though, nor as potent. The whole conversation indicates otherwise. Mere contact with Sidious' mind never drove anyone insane. At most their abilities are simply different. Vitiates is more corrupting due to his being and Sidious is more conventional.Sidious has erased the minds of millions of people all at once, he has dominated the minds of billions, transforming them into willing slaves, he has created Imperial Sentinels whose minds have been "annihilated" by his power and he has dominated the mind of Vader from light years away. And why not throw in his post-ROTJ feat of dominating the mind of Luke Skywalker completely.
If we are going to play the "but he hasn't done this game", point to the instances were the Sith Emperor has accomplished these feats. The fact is both Sidious and the Sith Emperor have profound telekinetic showings. And if he can do this, there is no reason to believe that the Emperor's other abilities are beyond Sidious. Sidious who it would not be in the best interests of to corrupt everything that enters his presence.
You mean this?
"This time I know his tricks and tactics,” Revan assured them. “I can shield my mind from being dominated by his will, and I can show you how to do the same."
In addition to that, Revan specifically states that said techniques will protect you from mental domination. Not probing. There is a difference. The Sith Emperor uses fear, hatred, anger and his sheer corruptive and maddening power to dominate the minds of others. These are not the same tools he'd use to passively monitor another's mind, nor are they the tools used by Sidious or any other Force user. Naturally therefore, differing techniques would be used to defend against such abilities.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Unfortunately Vader is Scourge's superior in every way, and would have superior telepathic barriers to boot.
The Emperor's Wrath have killed many ambitious Sith and powerful Jedi (over a thousand in total) during the span of his service to Vitiate, a combat record that few can claim to match and Vader is not among them.
When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
The Emperor's Wrath held his own even against the mighty Hero of Tython.
You fought Lord Scourge to a standstill until he broke off the battle for some reason. See what he has to say in the throne room of the Emperor's fortress.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic
In addition to the superior combat record, the Emperor's Wrath also had mastered some talents that Vader didn't such as Consume Essence, Force Stealth, and Shatterpoint.
As for the "superior telepathic barriers" part of your argument, the Emperor's Wrath is well-trained in the matters of countering telepathic powers.
"This time I know his tricks and tactics," Revan assured them. "I can shield my mind from being dominated by his will, and I can show you how to do the same."
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Regardless, do you really think Sidious actively monitors Vader's thoughts 24/7? No. He just knows. Just like powerful Force Users know when a presence enters the vicinity, even if they are not looking for them.Sidious caught whiff of Vader's betrayal from light years away, the Sith Emperor failed to smell the stench of deception literally sitting beneath his nose for 300 years.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You mean this?Yeah I did, however it looks like I wrote "resistant" when I meant immune. To reiterate no power exists in mythos that make you immune to telepathic intrusion, let alone from one the most telepathically dominating and powerful beings in galactic history.
In addition to that, Revan specifically states that said techniques will protect you from mental domination. Not probing. There is a difference. The Sith Emperor uses fear, hatred, anger and his sheer corruptive and maddening power to dominate the minds of others. These are not the same tools he'd use to passively monitor another's mind, nor are they the tools used by Sidious or any other Force user. Naturally therefore, differing techniques would be used to defend against such abilities.
The fact that Palpatine was flustered, confused, possibly frightened was obvious. But when Shaak Ti attempted to read him through the Force, she found it difficult to get a sense of what he was truly feeling.
Taken from Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil
It is much easier to probe the mind of a (powerful) Force-user when the will of such a Force-user is overridden, and this is possible only through telepathic subjugation or Mind Domination.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDMy apologies but I have neither the time nor the patience to humor you or your fantasies concerning Scourge's abilities.
Based on?The Emperor's Wrath have killed many ambitious Sith and powerful Jedi (over a thousand in total) during the span of his service to Vitiate, a combat record that few can claim to match and Vader is not among them.
If this is the case then how-come Sidious failed to determine Vader's betrayal on Death Star?Because it was a split-second decision, there was no time for Sidious to react to Vader's change that ultimately led to immediate action.
As I have already said, you can't possible compare that to Scourge, who took action after 300 years of deception.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDI fail to see the relevance of the quote. Or the relevance of your point. Yes its easier to probe the minds of Force sensitives once dominated, but the fact is Sidious didn't need to dominate anybody's mind to know what they were thinking.
Here:The fact that Palpatine was flustered, confused, possibly frightened was obvious. But when Shaak Ti attempted to read him through the Force, she found it difficult to get a sense of what he was truly feeling.
Taken from [B]Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil
It is much easier to probe the mind of a (powerful) Force-user when the will of such a Force-user is overridden, and this is possible only through telepathic subjugation or Mind Domination. [/B]
Unless of course your putting the Sith Emperor's telepathic abilities on level with Shaak Ti's. If so then 👆
Originally posted by Beniboybling
My apologies but I have neither the time nor the patience to humor you or your fantasies concerning Scourge's abilities.
You gloat about Vader's superiority over ancient Sith with sheer blindness. I dismissed your assertion that Vader is superior to Scourge in every aspect.
I accept your concession.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because it was a split-second decision, there was no time for Sidious to react to Vader's change that ultimately led to immediate action.As I have already said, you can't possible compare that to Scourge, who took action after 300 years of deception.
Do you recall that Scourge stabbed Meetra Surik in the back in front of Vitiate and was also willing to kill Revan on Vitiate's order? Well, Scourge gave no reason to Vitiate to question his loyalty during those 300 years.
Scourge took his vision seriously but he attacked even Hero of Tython, when the opportunity came. Scourge is a complex character: he is a Sith to the core but he didn't compromise on the matters of his self-preservation either.
Vitiate did not see through his deception, but the Scourge made sure that his boss wouldn't; Revan's training proved to be beneficial.
Vitiate 'could' expose the Scourge to his telepathic influence but chose not to to make sure that effectiveness of Emperor's Wrath is not compromised from such exposure.
So you need to focus on the big picture, instead of looking for ways to discredit both Scourge and Vitiate.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I fail to see the relevance of the quote. Or the relevance of your point. Yes its easier to probe the minds of Force sensitives once dominated, but the fact is Sidious didn't need to dominate anybody's mind to know what they were thinking.Unless of course your putting the Sith Emperor's telepathic abilities on level with Shaak Ti's. If so then 👆
You see? I can look for ways to discredit Sidious as well, but I don't do it.
We can assume that the Emperor's Wrath is among the most difficult individuals to read and that he was lucky by virtue of his position which saved him from telepathic influence of Vitiate unlike many others.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDThose surrounding your belief that every other Force user in TOR is among the greatest Force users in mythos because of the hype they have received in an encyclopedic medium.
What fantasies, Beni?You gloat about Vader's superiority over ancient Sith with sheer blindness. I dismissed your assertion that Vader is superior to Scourge in every aspect.
I accept your concession.
You haven't even begun to engage in Vader's abilities, nor proven Scourge's superiority over them.
And I pointed out to you that it is PIS.Which is a weak excuse, as I explained.
Do you recall that Scourge stabbed Meetra Surik in the back in front of Vitiate and was also willing to kill Revan on Vitiate's order? Well, Scourge gave no reason to Vitiate to question his loyalty during those 300 years.Uh huh, sure. More excuses, of which I have already covered. You need to read my responses to Neph.Scourge took his vision seriously but he attacked even Hero of Tython, when the opportunity came. Scourge is a complex character: he is a Sith to the core but he didn't compromise on the matters of his self-preservation either.
Vitiate did not see through his deception, but the Scourge made sure that his boss wouldn't; Revan's training proved to be beneficial.
Vitiate 'could' expose the Scourge to his telepathic influence but chose not to to make sure that effectiveness of Emperor's Wrath is not compromised from such exposure.
So you need to focus on the big picture, instead of looking for ways to discredit both Scourge and Vitiate.
Well, Warren Sedoru doesn't need to dominate anybody's mind to know what they had been thinking either. Unless of course your putting Sidious's telepathic abilities on level of Warren Sedoru's. If so then 👆Warren who now? I don't recall mentioning him, or comparing him to Sidious.You see? I can look for ways to discredit Sidious as well, but I don't do it.
No doubt his abilities pale in comparison.
You see? I can look for ways to discredit Sidious as well, but I don't do it.You can try, but your not very good at it.
We can assume that the Emperor's Wrath is among the most difficult individuals to read and that he was lucky by virtue of his position which saved him from telepathic influence of Vitiate unlike many others.Except we have no reason to "assume" his telepathic abilities were superior to that of Vader's, or Darth Plagueis' for that matter.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Those surrounding your belief that every other Force user in TOR is among the greatest Force users in mythos because of the hype they have received in an encyclopedic medium.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You haven't even begun to engage in Vader's abilities, nor proven Scourge's superiority over them.
1. Consume Essence
2. Force Stealth
3. Shatterpoint
Your turn.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Which is a weak excuse, as I explained.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Uh huh, sure. More excuses, of which I have already covered. You need to read my responses to Neph.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Warren who now? I don't recall mentioning him, or comparing him to Sidious.
I compared Warren to Darth Sidious because you compared Vitiate to Shaak Ti.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
You can try, but your not very good at it.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Except we have no reason to "assume" his telepathic abilities were superior to that of Vader's, or Darth Plagueis' for that matter.
Scourge deceived Vitiate for 300 years (your argument), and if we take this argument at face value then Scourge likely have superior telepathic abilities then Vader and Darth Plagueis.