Originally posted by Beniboybling
Prove it tbh.
Essence Transfer is a risky feat, right?
Yes! Reason is that a spirit cannot single-handedly possess or overcome a relatively stronger living being and/or risks demise in such struggle. CIP: Darth Bane's failure to overcome Darth Zannah as a spirit and eventual demise.
Consider the example of Darth Nox as well; he successfully resisted influence of all spirits he came across. These spirits were powerful, dangerous, and some had history of successfully influencing living beings and surroundings. Still, Nox proved too strong to overcome.
--
Vitiate obtains power from his use of sorcery and Force Drain powers. More importantly, Vitiate doesn't have a cap for raw power. He can grow in power virtually non-stop.
While Vitiate lost much of his power by virtue of disruption of his ultimate ritual and loss of Voices and Children, he re-initiated his recovery by drawing energy from the chaos that ensured on Yavin IV;
"The scores of dead have nourished me. I am awakened. And I bring with me--death!" – Emperor Vitiate
and proceeded to Ziost for further power progression;
Obsessed with achieving immortality, the Sith Emperor has targeted his own former subjects on the planet Ziost, with every death seemingly extending his dark power. Speaking through those he's possessed, he controls powerful pawns like Master Surro, the leader of a team of elite militarized Jedi known as the Sixth Line.
In short, Vitiate's raw power is not easily quantifiable and his forms are meaningless.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDI assume the point your trying to make here is that the fact that corporeal beings have been able to resist the influences of non-corporeal ones i.e. spirits, demonstrates the spirits to be weaker.
Let us consider the matter of Essence Transfer first.Essence Transfer is a risky feat, right?
Yes! Reason is that a spirit cannot single-handedly possess or overcome a relatively stronger living being and/or risks demise in such struggle. CIP: Darth Bane's failure to overcome Darth Zannah as a spirit and eventual demise.
Consider the example of Darth Nox as well; he successfully resisted influence of all spirits he came across. These spirits were powerful, dangerous, and some had history of successfully influencing living beings and surroundings. Still, Nox proved too strong to overcome.
If so I'm afraid it doesn't hold water.
In regards to essence transfer, what you need to understand is that once the possessor is within the body of the possessee, it is neutral ground, both of them are fighting over possession of a corporeal form, neither has an advantage.
Its a battle between spirits, non-corporeal entities.
However pay attention to the fact that essence transfer is an ability that cannot be resisted, never has a Force user been able to prevent a spirit from entering their body, only resist full possession. This is itself a testament to a being in non-corporeal forms ability to bypass conventional defenses.
On the other hand, name one example of a Force user dominating another without leaving their body in this manner, I can assure you any examples you will find will be from the very highest of tiers. And yet the spirits of lesser Force users e.g. the many Sith lords trapped within the Dark Temple, do so with ease.
Its quite obvious that spirits have an advantage in this respect.
Vitiate obtains power from his use of sorcery and Force Drain powers. More importantly, Vitiate doesn't have a cap for raw power. He can grow in power virtually non-stop.No he can't, he will always be limited by the shackles of his physical form, as long as he is housed within one. Because the fact is physical tissue can only channel so much Force energy without being corrupted or outright destroyed. Only in spiritual form can one's powers be truly limitless.
This is not a concept it should be difficult for you to grasp.
While Vitiate lost much of his power by virtue of disruption of his ultimate ritual and loss of Voices and Children, he re-initiated his recovery by drawing energy from the chaos that ensured on Yavin IV;And note that despite being supposedly weakened, the Emperor still manages to perform incredible feats surpassing anything non-ritual assisted he has achieved in life. Indeed, where was the Sith Emperor's abilities to consume the lives of hundreds at will when performing his ultimate ritual? Where he elected to dispatch minions to carry out complex operations the results of which he could have achieved single handedly?"The scores of dead have nourished me. I am awakened. And I bring with me--death!" – Emperor Vitiate
and proceeded to Ziost for further power progression;
Obsessed with achieving immortality, the Sith Emperor has targeted his own former subjects on the planet Ziost, with every death seemingly extending his dark power. Speaking through those he's possessed, he controls powerful pawns like Master Surro, the leader of a team of elite militarized Jedi known as the Sixth Line.
In short, Vitiate's raw power is not easily quantifiable and his forms are meaningless.
The reason your having an orgasm over the Sith Emperor's recent accomplishments is because of his evident power progression, and it is not coincidence that this power progression has occurred after the Sith Emperor has left his physical form and its restraints.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I assume the point your trying to make here is that the fact that corporeal beings have been able to resist the influences of non-corporeal ones i.e. spirits, demonstrates the spirits to be weaker.If so I'm afraid it doesn't hold water.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
In regards to essence transfer, what you need to understand is that once the possessor is within the body of the possessee, it is neutral ground, both of them are fighting over possession of a corporeal form, neither has an advantage.Its a battle between spirits, non-corporeal entities.
However pay attention to the fact that essence transfer is an ability that cannot be resisted, never has a Force user been able to prevent a spirit from entering their body, only resist full possession. This is itself a testament to a being in non-corporeal forms ability to bypass conventional defenses.
On the other hand, name one example of a Force user dominating another without leaving their body in this manner, I can assure you any examples you will find will be from the very highest of tiers. And yet the spirits of lesser Force users e.g. the many Sith lords trapped within the Dark Temple, do so with ease.
Its quite obvious that spirits have an advantage in this respect.
The cold darkness swallowing him up vanished, replaced by a searing burst of crimson light as the power of the ritual was unleashed. Bane was aware of his flesh being utterly consumed by the unimaginable heat, reduced to ashes in a thousandth of a second. But he was no longer a part of his own body. His spirit had discarded it like an old shell in favor of a new one.
Bane was suddenly fully aware of his physical surroundings. He could see with Zannah's eyes, he could hear with her ears. He could feel the intense heat of the ritual's crimson glow through her skin. But Zannah was still there, too. She sensed his assault; he could feel her terror and confusion as if they were his own. And when she screamed in horror he screamed with her.
The black tendrils vanished as her concentration was shattered, disappearing like smoke on the wind. Instinctively, she fought to repel the invader. Bane could feel her pushing him away, rejecting him, trying to drive him out even as he relentlessly tried to force his way in and snuff out her existence.
It became a battle of wills, their two identities locked together inside Zannah's mind, grappling for possession of her body. They teetered on the precipice of the void, Bane seeking to obliterate all trace of her identity while she sought to cast him down into the blackness.
For a moment they seemed to be evenly matched, neither gaining nor giving ground. And then suddenly it was over.
Taken from Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Originally posted by Beniboybling
No he can't, he will always be limited by the shackles of his physical form, as long as he is housed within one. Because the fact is physical tissue can only channel so much Force energy without being corrupted or outright destroyed. Only in spiritual form can one's powers be truly limitless.
Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Originally posted by Beniboybling
This is not a concept it should be difficult for you to grasp.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
And note that despite being supposedly weakened, the Emperor still manages to perform incredible feats surpassing anything non-ritual assisted he has achieved in life.
Vitiate's another planetary-scale feat:
Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm.
Taken From Star Wars: The Old Republic
+
Storms were common here on Dromund Kaas; dark clouds perpetually blocked out the sun, rendering terms like day and night meaningless.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
+
The powerful electrical storms were a physical manifestation of the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet—a power that had brought the Sith back here a millennium before, when their very survival had been in doubt.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Indeed, where was the Sith Emperor's abilities to consume the lives of hundreds at will when performing his ultimate ritual?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Where he elected to dispatch minions to carry out complex operations the results of which he could have achieved single handedly?
The Sith Emperor seeks to shape all things to his will. His Children, individuals infused with part of his being, have been scattered throughout the Republic, knowingly–or unknowingly–manipulating events to the Emperor's advantage over the years. Above them all is the First Son of the Emperor, a master strategist placed within the Jedi Council itself. Cloaked in the identity of Master Syo Bakarn, the First Son has been hiding the Children from the Jedi for decades, playing a long game with the Republic. His actions suggest a man possessing remarkable patience, ruthlessness and power. However, as Sophia Farash claimed, Master Syo has been unaware of the First Son’s existence–suggesting he and the First Son are two separate personas.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic
+
The Jedi remained blind to the Emperor's children due to the presence of the First Son, the being who was first imprinted with the Emperor's power. While the First Son lived, the Emperor's secret army remained hidden and undetected beneath the Republic's nose. By the time of the Great War, hundreds of the Emperor's Children were embedded within the Republic. Devoted Jedi, loyal soldiers, and influential politicians all unknowingly served as the Emperor's spies and, when the Emperor willed I, acted to tear down the Republic they held so dear.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
While Vitiate performed his deeds, his enemies weren't sitting idle either. His enemies struck back in force. These matters are covered in the SWTOR chapters of Jedi Knight and Jedi Consular.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The reason your having an orgasm over the Sith Emperor's recent accomplishments is because of his evident power progression, and it is not coincidence that this power progression has occurred after the Sith Emperor has left his physical form and its restraints.
The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
+
The Voice is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delivers his orders. This possessed being sacrifices all consciousness to become a hollow vessel for the Emperor. Over the centuries, the Emperor has taken many Voices from young children to alien species.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Originally posted by psmith81992Why can't Freedon Nadd possess a body?
A living spirit is Vitiate, who refuses to take a body but is able to conquer entire planets as a spirit. A dead spirit is Freedon Nadd, who [b]can't take a body because he is dead. [/B]
Exar Kun was a dead spirit, and yet was able to partly possess Kyp Durron. Darth Zash experienced bodily death on Dromund Kaas, and yet was able to inhabit and potentially fully possess Khem Val. Darth Bane experienced bodily death and yet almost possessed Darth Zannah. Talzin for all intensive purposes died yet managed to possess Dooku and later resurrect herself. Dathka Graush possessed a spacer pirates, Naga Sadow possessed Eison Gynt, Terrak Morrhage possessed the then dubbed Lord Vivicar. The list goes on.
The Sith Emperor, presuming that his original body has experienced bodily death, is also a dead spirit. And he too like others has demonstrated the capability to possess a body. Again they are all non-coporeal beings, and possess the same traits.
Why can't Freedon Nadd possess a body?
Exar Kun was a dead spirit, and yet was able to partly possess Kyp Durron
The Sith Emperor, presuming that his original body has experienced bodily death, is also a dead spirit.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDI provided my answer beneath that, you elected to ignore it and instead post the evidence that demonstrates why it is valid.
Why doesn't it hold water? This isn't a satisfactory answer.
👆
Really?So his powers are constantly increasing, likely every Force user, this does not mean the Emperor is not limited by his physical form, and will not always be stronger in a non-corporeal state.Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Performing a ritual is indication of weakness? Sith rituals aren't Witchcraft, Beni.No they are not, but the majority of the Sith Emperor's rituals involve the co-opting of external sources of power. Case in point, the Emperor's ability to change the weather of Dromund Kaas was evidently fueled by the nexus itself:Vitiate's another planetary-scale feat:
Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm.
Taken From Star Wars: The Old Republic
+
Storms were common here on Dromund Kaas; dark clouds perpetually blocked out the sun, rendering terms like day and night meaningless.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
+
The powerful electrical storms were a physical manifestation of the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet—a power that had brought the Sith back here a millennium before, when their very survival had been in doubt.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
The powerful electrical storms were a physical manifestation of the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet...
So again, these new feats are beyond anything we've seen so far.
Republic forces and the Jedi Order stopped Vitiate from completing this ritual.Indeed, and if the Emperor had dealt with these matters personally, he could have avoided his minions being overwhelmed and defeated by a superior Force. So it begs the question, why didn't he? Because the Sith Emperor requires assistance and multifaceted plans to bring the deaths of so many about.
Here:The problem with providing evidence without a point is that the evidence becomes pointless.The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.
Taken from [B]Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
+
The Voice is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delivers his orders. This possessed being sacrifices all consciousness to become a hollow vessel for the Emperor. Over the centuries, the Emperor has taken many Voices from young children to alien species.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia [/B]
Please do your best to rectify that.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I provided my answer beneath that, you elected to ignore it and instead post the evidence that demonstrates why it is valid.👆
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So his powers are constantly increasing, likely every Force user, this does not mean the Emperor is not limited by his physical form, and will not always be stronger in a non-corporeal state.
Most Force-users grow in power for a certain period in their lives but begin to decline at old age eventually. Natural biological arc.
Vitiate defies the natural biological arc, however. He doesn't age (i.e. immortality) and he uses his dark powers to continuously grow in power with passage of time (i.e. by draining other individuals).
Originally posted by Beniboybling
No they are not, but the majority of the Sith Emperor's rituals involve the co-opting of external sources of power. Case in point, the Emperor's ability to change the weather of Dromund Kaas was evidently fueled by the nexus itself:The powerful electrical storms were a physical manifestation of the dark side power that engulfed the entire planet...
—a power that had brought the Sith back here a millennium before, when their very survival had been in doubt.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
This power is Vitiate:
Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic (Holonet)
You should focus on the entire context of the information to draw conclusions, not bits and pieces.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
So again, these new feats are beyond anything we've seen so far.
Newer mediums tend to portray Vitiate in more impressive manner then earlier ones.
For example, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia revealed that Vitiate (once) defeated an entire Dark Council based Sith Strike Team with his powers. This feat also have been difficult for some readers to digest, but it happened and should be taken seriously.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Indeed, and if the Emperor had dealt with these matters personally, he could have avoided his minions being overwhelmed and defeated by a superior Force. So it begs the question, why didn't he? Because the Sith Emperor requires assistance and multifaceted plans to bring the deaths of so many about.
As the war continued, Vitiate decided to orchestrate his ultimate ritual for massive power progression at one point. However, this plan backfired during the course of the war and Vitiate lost much of his power in the process, though he began to recover. But his enemies exploited this temporary vulnerability to maximum effect and managed to defeat Vitiate.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
The problem with providing evidence without a point is that the evidence becomes pointless.Please do your best to rectify that.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDConsidering the Sith Emperor has been described as so withered and corrupted he is no longer recognizable as a Sith pureblood, I would bring that into question, I would also raise the fact that the Emperor in part appears to sustain himself from body hopping from Voice to Voice, presumably changing Voice after the prievous one has been physically exhausted.
Like every Force-user? Don't be ridiculous.Most Force-users grow in power for a certain period in their lives but begin to decline at old age eventually. Natural biological arc.
Vitiate defies the natural biological arc, however. He doesn't age (i.e. immortality) and he uses his dark powers to continuously grow in power with passage of time (i.e. by draining other individuals).
Regardless, despite the Sith Emperor's attempts to overcome his physical limitations they will always exist, in some form. Even if the Sith Emperor is able to stave off old age and the crippling effects of Force corruption, his body remains limited in its capacity to act as a conduit for Force energy both in terms of physical tissue and midichlorians. He can optimise his body as much as he likes, but it will always exist as a limiter as long as said body exists.
You are misinterpreting that information and overlooked this part:Lol I'm afraid not, seeing as the Sith Emperor was among the Sith who fled to Dromund Kaas, it couldn't possibly be referring to him, considering he had never set foot on the planet.—a power that had brought the Sith back here a millennium before, when their very survival had been in doubt.
Taken from [B]Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
This power is Vitiate:
Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic (Holonet)
You should focus on the entire context of the information to draw conclusions, not bits and pieces.[/b]
So it is clearly referring to a preexisting nexus, no doubt established by Vitiate's predecessors.
Its part of storytelling.The Revan novel set the precedent for the Sith Emperor being able to destroy the Dark Council. I think you'll find the Sith Emperor's abilities have been quite consistent. And there is no narrative purpose in amplifying his abilities with each piece of new material "cause reasons."Newer mediums tend to portray Vitiate in more impressive manner then earlier ones.
For example, [B]Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
revealed that Vitiate (once) defeated an entire Dark Council based Sith Strike Team with his powers. This feat also have been difficult for some readers to digest, but it happened and should be taken seriously.[/b]
What we are seeing here is the Emperor unleashed, from his corporeal form.
Vitiate was fighting Republic forces and the Jedi Order alongside Imperial forces. Influencing thousands of individuals (including many Force-users) 'within enemy space' from lightyears distance on top of performing Voice related actions, is no small feat. The sheer scale, complexity, and scope of this feat is mind-boggling.So your basically saying it was beyond his capabilities, I understand why that must be hard for you to articulate.As the war continued, Vitiate decided to orchestrate his ultimate ritual for massive power progression at one point. However, this plan backfired during the course of the war and Vitiate lost much of his power in the process, though he began to recover. But his enemies exploited this temporary vulnerability to maximum effect and managed to defeat Vitiate.
Regardless, the Emperor as you pointed out "lost much of his power" as a result of these instances, nor was he said to be at full strength when violently departing Yavin 4. And yet despite this still managed to pull of these feat.
So again, how was the Sith Emperor in a weakened state, capable of pulling off a feat that he was seemingly unable to perform in life, while juggling several other tasks?
Point is that Vitiate began to possess other beings to increase his safeguard in the aftermath of confrontation with Revan. Throughout the events depicted in the game, Vitiate is essentially an essence in the works.Yet he is essence is always contained within a corporeal vessel (read cage).