Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Evidence against Zen-Oh creating and empowering the angels:1. Whis stating that the angels were "sent from another place"
2. Zen-Oh not even knowing who the kaioshin are
3. Zen-Oh possessing childlike ignorance
Evidence in favor of Zen-Oh creating and empowering the angels:
Literally nothing.
"Hey Zeno, I bet you can't erase yourself."
"Ooooh oooooh watch me!"
Totally the most plausible reason he'd need guards.
The proposed idea that Frieza could reach Zen-Oh level just by training is absolutely ridiculous. Zen-Oh essentially wields unlimited destructive power by birthright. He can instantly destroy all 12 universes and their respective Gods/Angels. I doubt Frieza could ever come all that close to rivaling the angels either, especially Daishinkan. Interestingly enough, it's implied in the early lead-up to the ToP by Whis that Daishinkan is capable of erasure similar to Zen-Oh, (though presumably on a lesser scale).
I'm perfectly fine with mortals surpassing Gods of Destruction, though. After all, Gods of Destruction are essentially mortals given deity-status.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
The proposed idea that Frieza could reach Zen-Oh level just by training is absolutely ridiculous. Zen-Oh essentially wields unlimited destructive power by birthright. He can instantly destroy all 12 universes and their respective Gods/Angels. I doubt Frieza could ever come all that close to rivaling the angels either, especially Daishinkan. Interestingly enough, it's implied in the early lead-up to the ToP by Whis that Daishinkan is capable of erasure similar to Zen-Oh, (though presumably on a lesser scale).I'm perfectly fine with mortals surpassing Gods of Destruction, though. After all, Gods of Destruction are essentially mortals given deity-status.
Who is Daishinkan?
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
How much of the anime have you watched, tbh?Daishinkan is the Grand Priest. The Father of the Angels. The strongest fighter in the multiverse. The organizer of the Tournament of Power. etc.
I know who that is, I just was having trouble placing the name with face.
Originally posted by carver9
Just want to say that no one in the history of comics or Anime has achieved what Zeno has done. No one has completely erased (erased, not blow up) an entire Universe. Blowing up something is different than what's going on here...Zeno is erasing entire Universes from existence.
This is true. Zeno has top feats.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Probably? 😂I just don't see the point of your initial post other than to outline how Zen-Oh has the most impressive feats in anime/comics. Which he doesn't.
B-b-b destroying universes! No one's ever done that!
Not Hal Jordan, not Anti Monitor, not Mxy and Bat Mite, not Reed Richards and the Ultimate Nullifier, not Genis-Vell..
Just ask Carver! In all his piles of scans culled from respect threads, he never noticed anything like that. At least not an image link that wasn't broken. 😆
Well, in terms of feats, classic IG Thanos casually murked all the cosmic entities in the universe, (including Eternity,) and the Infinity Gauntlet was stated to be FAR more powerful than 30 CCU's, which back in the day were casually universal + items. An incomplete IG has also casually manipulated the energies of the Ultimate Nullifier, a potentially multiversal weapon.
That's just the raw power of the weapon, not to mention the haxx of time/space/soul/reality control that comes along with it. I'd be fine with one arguing that Zen-Oh is on par with IG Thanos, but nowhere above, tbh.
Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Well, in terms of feats, classic IG Thanos casually murked all the cosmic entities in the universe, (including Eternity,) and the Infinity Gauntlet was stated to be FAR more powerful than 30 CCU's, which back in the day were casually universal + items. An incomplete IG has also casually manipulated the energies of the Ultimate Nullifier, a potentially multiversal weapon.That's just the raw power of the weapon, not to mention the haxx of time/space/soul/reality control that comes along with it. I'd be fine with one arguing that Zen-Oh is on par with IG Thanos, but nowhere above, tbh.
Zen can casually murk Universal plus beings as well.
I don't get it. Goku (at his weakest) and Beerus (while holding back a large percentage of his power) was collapsing Universe 7 PLUS heaven and hell and they were doing this both physically and with nothing but pure power and that power wasn't even directed at these areas and Zen can casually wipe beings far more powerful than them with just a wave of his hand. With just a thought. The things you've named, I honestly wouldn't put those outside of the realm of Zen being capable of doing while holding back. This is a being that juggle universes for fun.
I agree that murking Eternity/the other cosmics like Galactus/Celestials certainly isn't out of Zen-Oh's reach. What I find to be out of Zen-Ohs reach is:
1. The ability of an INCOMPLETE IG to casually manipulate the energies of the Ultimate Nullifier, a potentially multiversal (infinite universes) weapon.
2. The ability of the IG to match up to the power of the Living Tribunal, who at the time was a singular, omnipresent, omniversal (had supreme authority over a "continuum of multiverses"😉 force.
3. The sheer haxx of the weapon, the complete and total control over time/space/soul/mind/reality/etc.
I agree that based on scaling from SSJG Goku and Beerus, an argument can be made that Zen-Oh is on par with the IG. Not so sure about above.