Not even 17 really surprises me by this point. Am mixed on it but him and Frieza going all out together should be interesting I suppose.
The 1v1 part of the episode was indeed one of the best looking fights in all of DB though.
Spoiler:.
Am glad Jiren tried to kill Goku’s friends so it would trigger a bit of the old classic Goku
Going by the final episode title, long live the prick troopers I guess.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well....is he just an evil ***?Or is he a good justice do-gooder?
It seemed to go back and forth this episode
First it's
"Your friendships and trust can be erased!"
Then it's
"I did not want our showdown to end this way, strong warrior Goku. You will be remembered in my memories."
So.....does Jiren have a split personality or what?
Plus prior to this, he didn't seem to act like such a **** and even reprimanded Toppo for throwing away his sense of justice and what not..so...the hell?
If we assume this is the first time he's ever even been challenged then he's having some mental breakdowns existential crisis type shit the same way Freeza did in his fight with ssj Goku on namek
Jiren's just not an evil basket case already so he's not quite going as low as Freeza
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well....is he just an evil ***?Or is he a good justice do-gooder?
It seemed to go back and forth this episode
First it's
"Your friendships and trust can be erased!"
Then it's
"I did not want our showdown to end this way, strong warrior Goku. You will be remembered in my memories."
So.....does Jiren have a split personality or what?
Plus prior to this, he didn't seem to act like such a **** and even reprimanded Toppo for throwing away his sense of justice and what not..so...the hell?
Well he's both.
Jiren started his life as a happy kid, then his parents died. He trained to avenge them but he failed, his master died, more friends died, and the ones who lived turn his back on him because it was a lost cause. So he devotes himself to getting stronger so he doesn't have to experience that kind of pain again(which he says as much in this episode).
So we know he has a deep reliance on strength since a lack of strength caused him to lose a lot in his past and we know he has trust issues because his friends have turned their backs on him before. We also know he prefers to use his powers for good because he is a pride trooper. We also know that, at least with Toppo, that he isn't really hated among the pride troopers. Toppo isn't getting angry with Jiren or anything, he mostly just seems concerned for the guy.
So you have Goku, a fighter who keeps coming back no matter how many times Jiren knocks him down, and Goku starts to eventually win explicitly because people put faith in him. This understandably aggravates Jiren as the whole friendship and trust thing didn't help him at all in the past so it working now is basically an affront to everything Jiren has believed for the longest time. Jiren deep down does want comrades(because it seems his wish is to bring at least his parents and master back) but he shuns it because historically it hasn't worked out.
Goku frustrates him to the point that Jiren does the literal unthinkable and aims an attack at Goku's friends. This is a tragic moment because Jiren has become no different than the villain he once opposed, which is the furthest thing from what he wanted to be. So Goku pummels him and Jiren accepts defeat before Goku's body spasms and Jiren now struggles to accept a victory that his strength failed to earn him.
Jiren is a good person who is on a very bad path that will lead him to being a villain. The closest point of comparison is Tien who similarly struggled between his path to be an assassin and the joy he found in his battles with Roshi and Goku. Tien had Goku dead to rights but refused a victory because it was unearned. Jiren doesn't refuse it but that's clearly because the stakes at this point are way more extreme and he definitely doesn't like it. He's a touch more complex than Freeza or Cell in that way but this archetype is nothing new to anime(Younger Toguro from YYH being the premier example) but for Dragonball villains it's honestly something that isn't done often at all. Vegeta and Piccolo are good guys now but that's only after being defeated and forced to side with the good guys out of convenience. Jiren is a character the audience is supposed to feel conflicted about.
Mind you the anime is doing a good job of making this harder for everyone. Unlike the manga, where Jiren is portrayed as a more or less decent enough guy with a massive chip on his shoulder, anime Jiren comes across as way more of a prick. You can still read good into his actions, like how he hasn't eliminated all that many people because it dooms universes, but in the same vein one could say he doesn't because no one is worth his time. The anime has focused more on making him intimidating and has sawed off the good guy stuff that is there.
All that said I like Jiren. Like Zamasu he's a villain that has a flawed execution but like the edgy Kai he is also an example of Super trying something new with it's villains as far as DB goes.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Well he's both.Jiren started his life as a happy kid, then his parents died. He trained to avenge them but he failed, his master died, more friends died, and the ones who lived turn his back on him because it was a lost cause. So he devotes himself to getting stronger so he doesn't have to experience that kind of pain again(which he says as much in this episode).
So we know he has a deep reliance on strength since a lack of strength caused him to lose a lot in his past and we know he has trust issues because his friends have turned their backs on him before. We also know he prefers to use his powers for good because he is a pride trooper. We also know that, at least with Toppo, that he isn't really hated among the pride troopers. Toppo isn't getting angry with Jiren or anything, he mostly just seems concerned for the guy.
So you have Goku, a fighter who keeps coming back no matter how many times Jiren knocks him down, and Goku starts to eventually win explicitly because people put faith in him. This understandably aggravates Jiren as the whole friendship and trust thing didn't help him at all in the past so it working now is basically an affront to everything Jiren has believed for the longest time. Jiren deep down does want comrades(because it seems his wish is to bring at least his parents and master back) but he shuns it because historically it hasn't worked out.
Goku frustrates him to the point that Jiren does the literal unthinkable and aims an attack at Goku's friends. This is a tragic moment because Jiren has become no different than the villain he once opposed, which is the furthest thing from what he wanted to be. So Goku pummels him and Jiren accepts defeat before Goku's body spasms and Jiren now struggles to accept a victory that his strength failed to earn him.
Jiren is a good person who is on a very bad path that will lead him to being a villain. The closest point of comparison is Tien who similarly struggled between his path to be an assassin and the joy he found in his battles with Roshi and Goku. Tien had Goku dead to rights but refused a victory because it was unearned. Jiren doesn't refuse it but that's clearly because the stakes at this point are way more extreme and he definitely doesn't like it. He's a touch more complex than Freeza or Cell in that way but this archetype is nothing new to anime(Younger Toguro from YYH being the premier example) but for Dragonball villains it's honestly something that isn't done often at all. Vegeta and Piccolo are good guys now but that's only after being defeated and forced to side with the good guys out of convenience. Jiren is a character the audience is supposed to feel conflicted about.
Mind you the anime is doing a good job of making this harder for everyone. Unlike the manga, where Jiren is portrayed as a more or less decent enough guy with a massive chip on his shoulder, anime Jiren comes across as way more of a prick. You can still read good into his actions, like how he hasn't eliminated all that many people because it dooms universes, but in the same vein one could say he doesn't because no one is worth his time. The anime has focused more on making him intimidating and has sawed off the good guy stuff that is there.
All that said I like Jiren. Like Zamasu he's a villain that has a flawed execution but like the edgy Kai he is also an example of Super trying something new with it's villains as far as DB goes.
Ok with that explanation, I guess I can see where it's coming from.
But I mean...the Pride Troopers are his comrades and they should trust him, so...that part I don't really get, cause Jiren does have those things...at least with Toppo/Dyspo anyway so shunning them doesn't really add up. Unless he's just putting up a front in not showing it, but in reality actually values them and wouldn't want to lose them like he did his parents/master.
But anyway, I can see that now that you've written it clearly.
Jiren probably does appreciate the Pride Troopers but keeps them at arms length because he sees trust and friendship as weak.
Honestly the most obvious thing Super should bring up is that Jiren lived a life without Dragonballs to fix his problems like Goku and U7. Life is way more bitter when you stay dead and don't get multiple chances.
Originally posted by AuraAngel
Jiren probably does appreciate the Pride Troopers but keeps them at arms length because he sees trust and friendship as weak.Honestly the most obvious thing Super should bring up is that Jiren lived a life without Dragonballs to fix his problems like Goku and U7. Life is way more bitter when you stay dead and don't get multiple chances.
True, though tbh I find it strange out of all the universes, only U7 seems to have dragonballs. I mean, no one else thought of them? Only 2 people?(Kami/Guru) Or at least something similar if there's no Namakians. Seems a little bit of a stretch.
haermm
Phuck these fake ass previews.......
Galan you were right...😛
The fight was amazing, Jiren's prick lvl just increased when he wanted to kill everybody...
17 being alive wasnt really suprising at this point.
Both Goku and Jiren powering up was kinda ridiculous first he was losing to MUI then he powered up and beat down his ass then Goku powered up and beat Jiren's ass again with his "friendship boost". haermm
Originally posted by Sj_Sharp, Mar 4th, 2018 04:10 PM
...I think that, if Goku is not going to win (remember, Freeza is still on the stage), it will be because MUI will somehow wear off or something like that, because, as far as raw power goes, I see MUI Goku being > whatever Jiren has to offer (included his 100% of Ep. 130).
Well...
Yeah, Jiren's "F*ck!! You're stronger than me so I'm going to kill everyone you care about!!!" hissy fit was one of the most b*tch-made moves from any villain, ever.
He went from just being douchey, to being one of the shittiest characters in the franchise. At least guys like Freeza own their actions -- Jiren pretends he's a good guy, but does the same type of shit as any lowly, second-rate villain when he's backed into a corner... His characterization is in no way 'complex', it's just pathetic.
...He's right up there with Frost, but there again: even Frost owned his shittiness in the end. /shrug
Originally posted by Ridley_PrimeIt was in the back of mind mind, mostly because previews from a few weeks ago teased it. One thing is for sure: recent previews have mentioned the selection of an MVP at the end of the ToP -- there's no way that isn't #17.
Not even 17 really surprises me by this point
I'm disappointed in one thing, which is that powerlevels, again, supersede anything.
Goku is supposed to be this Ultra-Instinct God that can dodge anything --- until somebody's powerlevel rises close, and then the ability is just basically another transformation, where the opponent can hit and fight him on equal ground.
We already knew that about UI, though -- it's why Daishinkan >>> Whis, for example(despite both being Angels who possess MUI.)
I don't think anyone thought MUI would truly make Goku 'untouchable' to any threat he ever faces or w/e... It's basically just another powerup(a powerup that put him beyond the level of Gods, mind you), but a powerup nonetheless. Anyone who can approach his level of power is going to start negating the 'benefits' of MUI.
That said, the only beings in DB who can legitimately beat MUI Goku at this point are the Angels/Zen-Oh. Everyone else(inc. the Hakaishin) would come up decidedly short.
Originally posted by Galan007Agreed. But in the end MUI will always have the advantage over somebody with equal power because their body attacks without thinking.
We already knew that about UI, though -- it's why Daishinkan >>> Whis, for example(despite both being Angels who possess MUI.)I don't think anyone thought MUI would truly make Goku 'untouchable' to any threat he ever faces or w/e... It's basically just another powerup(a powerup that put him beyond the level of Gods, mind you), but a powerup nonetheless. Anyone who can approach his level of power is going to start negating MUI.
Also, does MUI give the user unlimited power or something. They kept showing Goku getting right back up stronger than ever (seemingly taking no damage too even after all of Jiren's assaults). Jiren also commented on how Goku's stamina was not diminishing.
MUI reminds me of the saiyan's zenkai boost and how they get stronger after each fight, only it is happening on the fly during the fight with MUI.