Again though, his guard was down. One of the shows even had him drop Blue, whether it was a movie or anime.
Same deal with Piccolo, when he was certain the fight was over, and gave a thumbs up to the crowd. Or against Majin Vegeta, with a lull in fighting, and an assumption Vegeta would join him in investigating Buu, and not blindside him to go alone.
In just about every example you can bring up, Goku has a reason to drop his guard. Kale is different, because he was at full guard, which means full ki shields (Remember when Vegeta wanted to outright let Krillin mortally wound him, and the latter claimed he can't possibly harm him? And so Vegeta agreed to lower his defenses?)
Originally posted by Galan007
They are canon with one another when no contradiction occurs.
Citation needed.
The events of RoF were still mentioned in the primary DBS manga(a few times), so we know it was still intended to have happened in manga continuity as per the film...
Right, but we never got to see the details of the fight, which is what's relevant here.
There's also the 3 part RoF manga that was released concurrently with the film. Even though it was still written by Toyotaro, overseen by Toriyama, and published under the SAME brand as all other DBS manga, I know you still believe it doesn't 'count'... So I won't get into that again, because it is ultimately a huge waste of time.
Yes, yes, I get that you think it's really cool to take jabs at opposing opinions, then refuse to discuss them immediately thereafter. If you really don't want to waste time, just don't reply with this shit.
Originally posted by NewGuy01Common sense?
Citation needed.
Both are canon. The manga is *more* canon due to increased direct oversight by Toriyama. So IF the manga directly(key word) contradicts the anime, that's the interpretation we go with. If no contradiction occurs, however, or if a particular scene from the anime is omitted from the manga entirely(as has been the case with SEVERAL scenes), naturally those anime scenes still remain canon/intact.
That's how canon works. If you disagree, I'd like a legitimate reason why, please. Again, if no direct contradiction occurs, it defaults to canon.
Originally posted by NewGuy01The details of the fight can be seen in the canon film/anime.
Right, but we never got to see the details of the fight, which is what's relevant here.
Citation that the film is NOT canon to the manga(even though it has been explicitly referenced multiple times in the manga), please?
Originally posted by NewGuy01Relax.
Yes, yes, I get that you think it's really cool to take jabs at opposing opinions, then refuse to discuss them immediately thereafter. If you really don't want to waste time, just don't reply with this shit.
I think your opinion regarding the 3 part RoF manga is silly, given the facts I mentioned previously. However, we've had this discussion before, and you disagree...So there is no reason to get BACK into it here. I mentioned the RoF manga simply because it DOES exist, and imo it is perfectly valid(especially given that the proper manga has explicitly referenced the events of RoF multiple times)... But since you disagree with its validity, I opted not to use it beyond this.
I *could*, but I *won't* for arguments sake. Don't take things so personally... I legit was not trying to come off like an assh0le. 👆
You all are hilarious. Letting their guard down being a weakness wasnt something that started in DBS. This was shown in Z and they fed off of it...
When they are distracted, they can be taken advantage of, especially Goku. There are some people whom guard is ALWAYS up.
Originally posted by Galan007
Jōshiki? Ryōhō tomo Kiyanondesu. Manga wa, Toriyama no chokusetsutekina kantoku no zōka no tame ni, yori ōku no Kiyanondesu. Dakara manga ga chokusetsu (kīwādo) ga anime to mujun suru baai, sore ga watashitachi no kaishakudesu. Shikashi, mujun ga hassei shinai baai, matawa anime no tokutei no shīn ga kanzen ni manga kara jogai sa rete iru baai (fukusū no shīn no baai no yō ni), shizen ni sorera no animēshonshīn wa sonomama/ sonomamadesu. Sore ga, Kiyanon no shikumidesu. Anata ga dōi shinai baai, seitōnariyū ga hitsuyōna no wa nazedesu ka. Kurikaeshi ni narimasuga, chokusetsu mujun ga okinai baai wa, deforuto de kanon ni narimasu. _ Tatakai no shōsai wa, Kiyanon no eiga/ anime de miru koto ga dekimasu. Eiga wa manga ni wa Kiyanonde wanai (mangade wa nando mo meishiteki ni sanshō sa rete iru nimokakawarazu). _ Rirakkusu. Watashi ga mae ni nobeta jijitsu o kangaereba, 3-bu no RoF no manga ni kansuru anata no iken wa bakada to omoimasu. Shikashi, watashitachiha mae ni kono giron o shite imashitaga, anata wa sore ni hantai shimasu... Sokode koko ni modoru ni wa riyū wa arimasen. Watashi wa RoF no manga ni tsuite genkyū shite imasuga, kore wa kanzen ni yūkōdesu (tokuni, tekisetsuna manga ga RoF no dekigoto o meishiteki ni sanshō shite iru koto o kangaereba)... Shikashi, anata wa sono datōsei ni dōi shinainode, kore o koete. Watashi wa dekimasu* shikashi, watashi wa giron no tame* * shimasen. Kojin-teki ni monogoto o totte wa ikenai... Watashi wa seitōna no wa, o shiri no yō ni soto ni deyou to shite inai. 👆
It's basically like twin universes at this point. Subtle alterations but everything largely stays the same. If something happens in the Anime, it should be possible in the Manga as long as those levels stay the same (For example Anime Zamasu is God level while Manga Zamasu is SS2 level so things that happen to him aren't relevant to both of them, Black however would be).
Meh.
More or less.
For example, the entire sequence from the anime where Piccolo 'trained' Gohan prior to the ToP was never touched on it in the manga. Therefore it should remain canon by default, because it was never directly contradicted in the manga.
Conversely, Goku's sparring match with #17 occurred in BOTH the anime and manga. In the former #17 sparred with SSB Goku; in the latter he sparred with SSJ3 Goku. Because the manga is more canon than the anime, the manga's rendition of the match becomes the most canon rendition by proxy.
Unlike with DBZ, there are no non-canon filler scenes in the DBS anime. It's ALL canon unless the manga directly contradicts it... And there are no direct contradictions where RoF is concerned. To the contrary, the manga implies that the RoF arc took place exactly like the canon film/anime depict.
DBS #4:
https://i.imgur.com/kQy4QPs.png
DBS #5:
https://i.imgur.com/mXHH92e.png
DBS #32:
https://i.imgur.com/EZaunIQ.jpg
Complete with Freeza's flashbacks/Hell:
https://i.imgur.com/fa79Klt.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/asxmnH2.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/AO1z1lS.jpg
So yeah. /shrug
Originally posted by carver9
You all are hilarious. Letting their guard down being a weakness wasnt something that started in DBS. This was shown in Z and they fed off of it...When they are distracted, they can be taken advantage of, especially Goku. There are some people whom guard is ALWAYS up.
I have something much better...
The legendary Class 100 rock scene 😄
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I have something much better...The legendary Class 100 rock scene 😄
In fairness, we see what rocks can do. Just look at Spongebob.
The manga is *more* canon due to increased direct oversight by Toriyama.
According to you. There's been no official word on the subject, as far as I'm aware. And given that this point is key to everything else you say after this, I'm going to have to ask you to prove it to be true before calling me silly for disagreeing.
So IF the manga directly contradicts the anime, that's the interpretation we go with. If no contradiction occurs, however, or if a particular scene from the anime is omitted from the manga entirely(as has been the case with SEVERAL scenes), naturally those anime scenes still remain canon/intact. That's how canon works.
Once again, according to you. And presupposing that the manga is a higher level of canon than the anime.
Citation that the film is NOT canon to the manga(even though it has been explicitly referenced multiple times in the manga), please?
No, the movie was never referenced in the manga. Frieza's revival has been referenced, though, which is non-contradictory given that the event was briefly established to have happened in chapter 5.
As for my reasoning that the film is not necessarily canon to the manga, I need only point out the concurrent arcs that were shown in the movies, anime, and manga, and how they're all different. Assuming they're all interchangeable would create a plethora of continuity errors. This could be partially addressed if there were an established hierarchy between the three (as you say there is), but even then there would be issues with indirect contradictions like Goku being capable of using SSB with Kaio Ken in the anime.
So, like OBM said:
Originally posted by OneBigMob
It's basically like twin universes at this point.
***
The details of the fight can be seen in the canon film/anime.
Heh, which one? They're not the same.
I think your opinion regarding the 3 part RoF manga is silly, given the facts I mentioned previously. However, we've had this discussion before, and you disagree... I mentioned the RoF manga simply because it DOES exist, and imo it is perfectly valid.
What about those facts? Why does it being manga, or written by Toyotaro, matter? Manga is just a medium. It doesn't change the fact that it was a companion piece to the RoF movie, and not part the Dragon Ball Super serialization. It was written before Dragon Ball Super was even announced. This is important because we know for a fact that changes to the movie's coverage were made retroactively with Super's launch, which is not true for the RoF manga. A minor, but easily demonstrable example is Shisami's replacement by Tagoma. And the differences in context enormously affect the powerscaling, which, ironically, is exactly what you were complaining about on the other page.
It's not just the powerscaling, though. Taking Revival of F as an example, there are plotholes that arise from conflating the movie and the manga, too. Case in point, the fact that Goku defeated Frieza by virtue of SSB being introduced as a stable and economical transformation, in contrast to the Golden transformation that burned brightly but lacked staying power. Which is fine standalone, but in the manga SSB was introduced as initially being an atrociously inefficient transformation that robbed Vegeta of 90% of his strength after briefly activating it to impress Cabba. So if you wanted tangible evidence that the manga's RoF battle probably contained changes from the anime and movie,
Spoiler:, that's probably a fair indicator.
besides the fact that all of the other battles did
Originally posted by NewGuy01Eh, Toriyama is still the pinnacle of canon in this franchise, is he not?
According to you. There's been no official word on the subject, as far as I'm aware. And given that this point is key to everything else you say after this, I'm going to have to ask you to prove it to be true before calling me silly for disagreeing.Once again, according to you. And presupposing that the manga is a higher level of canon than the anime.
I ask because he only gave Toei rough/vague guidelines to follow for the anime(and I mean VERY rough/vague -- I've even posted his storyboards/notes here, lol), and Toei just filled in the rest of the gaps themselves.
Where the manga is concerned, however, Toriyama has a lot more direct involvement in its overall creation. Therefore, it gives us a much truer look at HIS actual vision.
That said, I'm perplexed as to why I need to prove that the media which has significantly more direct involvement from the creator of the franchise represents the higher form of canon? Again, this comes down to sheer common sense.
Originally posted by NewGuy01It was also mentioned again in Chapter 32 (see above.)
No, the movie was never referenced in the manga. Frieza's revival has been referenced, though, which is non-contradictory given that the event was briefly established to have happened in chapter 5.
Clearly the RoF arc was intended to have happened very similarly to what we saw on-screen. What legitimate reason do we have to believe it happened much differently, like you're suggesting?
Originally posted by NewGuy01They all have differences, yes. But what evidence is there to suggest that Goku's fight with Freeza was intended to have played out any differently in the manga than what we saw on-screen..?
As for my reasoning that the film is not necessarily canon to the manga, I need only point out the concurrent arcs that were shown in the movies, anime, and manga, and how they're all different.
Originally posted by NewGuy01Uhuh. The fact that the RoF mini was written by the SAME guy who writes the DBS manga, overseen by the CREATOR of the franchise, and published under the SAME brand as the DBS manga means nothing, iyo. We should just ignore those little nuggets, right?
What about those facts? Why does it being manga, or written by Toyotaro, matter? Manga is just a medium. It doesn't change the fact that it was a companion piece to the RoF movie, and not part the Dragon Ball Super serialization. It was written before Dragon Ball Super was even announced. This is important because we know for a fact that changes to the movie's coverage were made retroactively with Super's launch, which is not true for the RoF manga.
Heh, like I said: not going here again, because while I wholly disagree, it is ultimately irrelevant to this particular discussion. 👆
Originally posted by Galan007
Eh, Toriyama is still the pinnacle of canon in this franchise, is he not?I ask because he only gave Toei rough/vague guidelines to follow for the anime(and I mean VERY rough/vague -- I've even posted his storyboards/notes here, lol), and Toei just filled in the rest of the gaps themselves.
By that line of logic, your whole schpiel about how "canon works" falls apart. If the anime and manga both follow Toriyama's guidelines--which is the basis for canon, in your words--then scenes included in one version but omitted from the other, like Gotenks fighting a purple goo Vegeta for example, would by default not be included in those guidelines, and thus not be canon. Yet, you're simultaneously arguing the opposite, so clearly you do think that Toei's filler is perfectly valid.
I get the feeling that you're trying to establish a Star Wars-esque G>T>C>N canon hierarchy to all of this, but nothing like that was ever established for Dragon Ball. Either Toriyama's guidelines are canon and Toei's filler isn't, or all of it's equally canon, as it stands.
Clearly the RoF arc was intended to have happened very similarly to what we saw on-screen.
If nothing else, it certainly began and ended the same way, I agree. That can be said for every single arc so far, though, so referencing chapter 32 doesn't really help your case at all.
What legitimate reason do we have to believe it happened much differently, like you're suggesting?
You're missing the point. I'm only pointing out that there is a definite possibility of variation between the Frieza battle in RoF and the offscreen one in Super. I'm saying that it cannot be assumed that they are the same, not that they are definitively not the same, *although I do believe there is fair reason to speculate that they aren't. I could elaborate on those reasons, but it's besides the point, and I doubt you care anyhow.
As it relates to the topic, you mentioned that Caulifla keeping up with 4th Form Frieza was inconsistent with 4th Form Frieza being SSG level. But that was never established in the manga, because this is Frieza's first onscreen fight. The only legitimate basis for Manga Frieza's power level is what we're seeing now. There's only a contradiction if you assume that the movie's and manga's versions of RoF are exactly the same, which I'm arguing we cannot do.
The fact that the RoF mini was written by the SAME guy who writes the DBS manga,
Doesn't matter. As you're about to point out, the movies, anime, and manga were all worked on by Toriyama, but still possess various differences regardless. The fact that the RoF mini was drawn by Toyotaro doesn't mean it's part of the Dragon Ball Super manga's continuity.
overseen by the CREATOR of the franchise,
As above.
and published under the SAME brand as the DBS manga
This, actually, does mean literally nothing. What's more important is that it's not the DBS manga. It was a teaser for the movie, which was made before DBS was serialized, period.
Originally posted by NewGuy01Because you evidently do not understand what I'm saying here at all..?
By that line of logic, your whole schpiel about how "canon works" falls apart.
Originally posted by NewGuy01K. So when was it ever established that we should be treating the anime and manga as separate/twin universes, like you mentioned earlier? So far as I know, all this shit is happening in the SAME universe(just like the DBZ anime and manga)... We're just seeing two renditions of it: one is truer to Toriyama's actual vision(the manga); the other is mostly Toei's vision(the anime). It's all canon, but the manga is certainly *more* canon, because Toriyama is *the* quintessential figurehead of canon in this mythos.
I get the feeling that you're trying to establish a Star Wars-esque G>T>C>N canon hierarchy to all of this, but nothing like that was [b]ever established for Dragon Ball. Either Toriyama's guidelines are canon and Toei's filler isn't, or all of it's equally canon, as it stands.[/B]
Originally posted by NewGuy01I'll ask again: what evidence is there to suggest that Goku's fight with Freeza was intended to have played out any differently in the manga than what we saw on-screen..?
If nothing else, it certainly began and ended the same way, I agree. That can be said for every single arc so far, though, so referencing chapter 32 doesn't really help your case at all.
You're preaching that I'm just throwing my opinion around, but that is literally all you're doing here. Your contention is essentially: "it wasn't shown therefore it must be different." Obviously I find that line of reasoning a bit fallacious, given that we still have two canon reference-points to work with -- three if you count the RoF mini(I know you don't, just saying.)
Originally posted by NewGuy01And you're missing mine.
You're missing the point. I'm only pointing out that there is a definite possibility of variation between the Frieza battle in RoF and the offscreen one in Super. I'm saying that it cannot be assumed that they are the same, not that they are definitively not the same, [b]*although I do believe there is fair reason to speculate that they aren't. I could elaborate on those reasons, but it's besides the point, and I doubt you care anyhow.[/B]
The RoF film is canon. The RoF anime is canon. We know RoF happened in the manga. Until I get a legitimate reason to assume the RoF arc(particularly Goku's fight with Freeza) was intended to have played out vastly different in manga-canon, I'm not just going to assume it did...cuz personal reasons or w/e.
I feel like that is perfectly logical, tbh.
Originally posted by NewGuy01And again: you have yet to give me any legitimate evidence/reasons to support your opinion.
As it relates to the topic, you mentioned that Caulifla keeping up with 4th Form Frieza was inconsistent with 4th Form Frieza being SSG level. But that was never established in the manga, because this is Frieza's first onscreen fight. The only legitimate basis for Manga Frieza's power level is what we're seeing now. There's only a contradiction if you assume that the movie's and manga's versions of RoF are exactly the same, which I'm arguing we cannot do.
Originally posted by NewGuy01Ignoring this, because as I have reiterated: it is a moot argument.
Doesn't matter. As you're about to point out, the movies, anime, and manga were all worked on by Toriyama, but still possess various differences regardless. The fact that the RoF mini was drawn by Toyotaro doesn't mean it's part of the Dragon Ball Super manga's continuity.As above.
This, actually, does mean literally nothing. What's more important is that it's not the DBS manga. It was a teaser for the movie, which was made before DBS was serialized, period.
