Dragon Ball Discussion Thread

Originally posted by cdtm
No, he wasn't taking it seriously, but he did confirm master blue is up to god tier.

Being annoyed by a punch, as you're specifically testing one's power level, is a bold statement (Since holding back too much makes the test meaningless.) We can safely assume Beerus was keeping to the weakest godly standards.

From here on out, every upgrade narrows that gap even more. If mastered blue is low end, and Beerus is high end, stands to reason anything above mastered blue is another step into the god tiers.

And of course, Jiren himself measures fairly high, assuming he's on par with Belmond. Goku and Vegeta being able to press Jiren while teaming up also speaks volumes.

Beerus was playing around and got pissed that Vegeta actually had the balls to punch him. It is impossible to tell what percentage of power Beerus was using initially -- he definitely wasn't using much power, though, as even Whis noted that he wasn't taking the fight seriously at all.

Again, it was recently established in an interview that not even MUI Goku has reached Beerus' level. The manga is painting that picture as well, imo.

The only reason Goku/Vegeta can press Jiren is because Jiren's massively weakened, secondary to fighting MUI.

Beerus' exertion isn't really a great indicator considering he got pushed by Twinku and that was retroactively like hundreds of times weaker than ToP power levels.

Also the fact that Jiren hovers somewhere around Belmond level and even a massively holding back Jiren can beat up Vegeta Blue2 who can fodder Toppo who is almost a God level being himself. Which indicates there is some vastness to the levels.

If Jiren = Belmond = Beerus, then we can safely assume Beerus was yet again "holding back" against a far weaker Vegeta that Jiren foddered.

But we're led to believe Beerus > Jiren > Belmond, so Beerus getting stunned is meaningless and indicated he was severely playing around.

In addition anyway to what Galan said.

Except Goku and Vegeta are now pushing a non holding back Jiren, in the manga.

He may become even stronger, but at present he's the very same Jiren who survived and matched noob MUI Goku.

Originally posted by cdtm
Except Goku and Vegeta are now pushing a non holding back Jiren, in the manga.

He may become even stronger, but at present he's the very same Jiren who survived and matched noob MUI Goku.

But yes, 2 base saiyans = MUI Goku. Or...

Jiren was weakened by fighting Goku Blanco. The amount of problems you create when you assume he's at the same level is tremendous.

2 base Saiyans > Jiren = Belmond/Beerus > (just barely) Blue2 < Jiren < MUI = Jiren < 2 Base Saiyans < 2 SS < Golden Frieza < 1 Complete Blue < Blue2/KK Complete Blue < Jiren < ...

I gave up actually. I actually got greatly confused because I kept thinking of your point more and more so I just stopped.

Jiren is currently weakened. It's not applicable.

Did you read the manga? No mention of a weakened Jiren, like in the anime. If anything, he got even stronger.

Two base Saiyans pushing a not weakened at all Jiren tracks with other events of the series, like Roshi initially avoiding Jiren's attacks (Yeah yeah, holding back. How ridiculously low was he pushing his power for that to happen?), or the established MUCH weaker Pride Troopers roughing up Kale with team work, after she dismantled Golden Freeza and Goku Blue.

I think the anime realize how insane Toriyama's theme of teamwork and skill > power is, and inserted Jiren on the edge of death for the show.

The manga simply doesn't follow that line of reasoning.

Originally posted by cdtm
Did you read the manga? No mention of a weakened Jiren, like in the anime. If anything, he got even stronger.

Two base Saiyans pushing a not weakened at all Jiren tracks with other events of the series, like Roshi initially avoiding Jiren's attacks (Yeah yeah, holding back. How ridiculously low was he pushing his power for that to happen?), or the established MUCH weaker Pride Troopers roughing up Kale with team work, after she dismantled Golden Freeza and Goku Blue.

I think the anime realize how insane Toriyama's theme of teamwork and skill > power is, and inserted Jiren on the edge of death for the show.

The manga simply doesn't follow that line of reasoning.

So what does this have to do with Beerus and evolving Saiyans on their own? If teamwork trumps massive gaps in power, then how do you relate that to one Saiyan on their own being close to Beerus in power?

And how do you, by your own words account for a Jiren near Beerus' level completely destroying a Vegeta before he even powered up?

You've seemed to have massively diverged from your point here.

Originally posted by cdtm
Did you read the manga? No mention of a weakened Jiren, like in the anime. If anything, he got even stronger.

"He's considerably weakened!"

And you spotted the logic hole.

Yeah, I've got nothing.

I think it's a safe bet Goku is Belmond level, if Jiren is. That's something.

And in the GoD ToP, Beerus didn't seem THAT far above the pack, did he?

Yeah, that doesn't help Vegeta's case. Outside of being candidate material, but who knows where the cutoff is there...?

On another topic:

Could Zeno be mafuba'd?

I was thinking about scenerios where the lower worlds revolted, and he'd obviously need to be neutralized somehow. You probably can't beat him, but trapping god is a pretty common trope in fiction. Summoning circles and such to trap Anubis, higher demons that can torch universes, genie's trapped in a bottle, that sort of thing.

More then likely, the best you can do with Zeno is trick him, though. Convince him to take a long vacation in another universe, or the room of spirit and time, maybe.

Originally posted by Galan007
https://i.imgur.com/C1X1Jul.jpg

"He's considerably weakened!"

Yeah, I went back and re-read it the other night.

Glad to be wrong, tbh. Shows Toriyama hasn't completely lost it with the skill beats powers.

One good thing about the manga, is it establish's ultra instinct isn't some magic bullet powerup, and relies on the strength of the user. The skill is making Goku's body exceed his limitations, like a sprinter that doesn't properly warm up, or overexerts himself well past what his body can safely handle.

While Jiren is just that strong and fast, that he could catch up to Goku by pushing himself.

It implies Tien and Krillin would not have similar gains.

A bad thing about the manga, is MUI was kind of underwhelming.

Everyone was more impressed with Vegeta going evolved Blue. Belmond didn't seem even a little bit worried, and Jiren didn't give Goku the respect he showed Vegeta.

Do you guys agree/disagree with how strong GT level, compared to Super? It looks accurate to me, since GT is older and should be stronger.

YouTube video

GT has the multipliers, but Super has the skills/feats. Could argue for End of GT Goku (though we don't know his limits or where he lies on the power scale), but that's about it.

Super Dragon Ball Heroes did the DBS vs GT bit better than that video there.

MUI could never read the tail.

I did something like that for Super and the multipliers ended up beating out the GT ones I believe after the Black saga.

Originally posted by cdtm
MUI could never read the tail.

Looks like we'll never find out, the way things are going.

The anime making an excuse for forgetting MUI isn't good. Manga Goku never had the problem the anime did accessing it, either, so I'm thinking we'll never see MUI again.

You all realize Super effectively retconned away one of Dragon Ball's best speed feats?

I'm talking about Master Roshi's machinegun bullet catch.

Super just established Roshi could dodge Jiren using a technique. This means Roshi could have been using the same skill to catch all those bullets. Claiming Roshi's feat scales to everyone who's stronger then him has become an invalid argument.

Thank you, Toriyama, for putting to rest one of the few measurable feats you had. 👆

Vash the Stampede riddles Vegeta with bullets 👆

Originally posted by cdtm
You all realize Super effectively retconned away one of Dragon Ball's best speed feats?

I'm talking about Master Roshi's machinegun bullet catch.

Super just established Roshi could dodge Jiren using a technique. This means Roshi could have been using the same skill to catch all those bullets. Claiming Roshi's feat scales to everyone who's stronger then him has become an invalid argument.

Thank you, Toriyama, for putting to rest one of the few measurable feats you had. 👆

Vash the Stampede riddles Vegeta with bullets 👆