Most powerful Sith? Spring 2015 ed.

Started by SIDIOUS 6655 pages

@LeGenD

Yeah, but that's why I said by your reasoning: ignoring canon statements about Sidious being the most powerful sith.

Yeah, you see Palpatine wasn't ordinary so the force had to go out of its way to create its own champion, not sit and wait for some powerful force user to do its job. And yes, Palpatine had Plagueis's help with the ritual, but he kept the force under his will way after Plagueis's death, which is why the force wasn't satisfied until Anakin killed him. I already provided proof that Palpatine was the sole person who was cutting off the jedi order's ability to peer the future. Vitiate rose to power through rituals and aid, so I don't know why you're bringing that up Plagueis anyway. I can't help it Palpatine had the power to corrupt the entire force, bend it to his will, and keep it in check for years, whereas Vitiate in his thousands of years of existence could not despite multiple rituals. That's the difference in their power I guess.

Palpatine's force storms are storms of electrical energy so potent that it literally destroys reality. In fact, according to The Comics Companion, Palpatine's last force storm threatened to consume ALL OF SPACE. Pretty insane huh? The source isn't written in in-universe context either; it's as objective as it gets. I'd say that is leagues beyond Vitiate's dark side nexus feat on Ziost. And Sidious can summon these things instantaneously. Just ridiculous. Too bad Vitiate couldn't unleash his wave in the same amount of time, otherwise it would be more useful in vs forums. But at least it does show Vitiate's mastery.

Originally posted by The Merchant
That honestly sounds like real downplay of the Executor. An ISD should weigh 354,150,000 metric tons. Also in the ICS it says that Venators and even Acclamators use Hypermatter reactors.

Eh it's what one of the fact files say about the Executor, although I'm thinking it could mean something else now.

Also yeah the Venators and Acclamators use the Hypermatter, the ISDs use the Solar ones which are better as the Solar is able to provide power to all systems on the ship and still leave a substantial reserve left over.

I also recall a quote saying they have a power output to that of a star, but i'll have to check through my sources again.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I also recall a quote saying they have a power output to that of a star, but i'll have to check through my sources again.
That's what the Wookiee says, it sources Star Wars: Complete Locations if that's any help.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
That's what the Wookiee says, it sources Star Wars: Complete Locations if that's any help.

It's not, I checked.

🙁

Ok can we establish that yes the Force Storm>>Vitiate's Nathema feat?

The Nathema feat? Absolutely, Vitiate required days of preparation with the aid of hundreds of Sith Lords to perform the ritual.

As for Ziost, I would say yes for that one too, but it's arguable. While Vitiate seemingly can't conjure a death field like that on a whim like Sidious can with Force Storms, you also need to factor in that it also empowers Vitiate enormously as a result.

In terms of destructive merit? I'd say yes. In terms of overall usefulness, the line blur.

Originally posted by The Merchant
The ships crashed on Pammant and the Executor when they were in hyperspace Legend, the other instances I'm pretty sure the ships simply fell on to the planet in real space. Trying to argue if Ziost is bigger than Pammant is futile, neither have any stated diameter sizes so that point is moot, you have to go with the "minimum" planet size which are Earth sized. Ziost's moon's being small could just be that Ziost's Moons are smaller than ours.

Size matters. Larger planet is harder to damage accordingly.

Also, I have learned that Pammant was a tunneled starship manufacturing hub. The tunneled aspect of Pammant made it more vulnerable to destruction perhaps.

Besides, this is the description of event:

The impact scattered radioactive particles through Pammant's atmosphere and frac-tured its core.

Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Guide to Warfare

No much else is known.

Also, this makes no sense to me. The core of a planet is liquid in form. How can it be fractured?

Here is a decent read: http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/29427/are-broken-planets-possible-in-the-real-world

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Not crash Legend, collide at hyperspace speeds.

The planet was Pammant. Its size is unknown, but a planet is a planet, and its purposeless and arbitrary to deem it smaller of larger than Ziost.


See above.

Tbh at this point, I'm wondering just how Vitiate is gonna die. Cause it seems at this point, him even being an Op boss would seem rather lackluster if he's just gonna keep getting more powerful at this point. Because then it's like....why did he not just kill everyone?

Just a story JK boss would also feel lackluster, tbh they should have just kept him as he was previously in the JK story. This still makes him powerful, but being able to be beaten....now it's just....I don't see how BW is gonna make his end, unless they shoehorn in some ridiculous stupid crap.

It's already shoehorned ridiculous bullshit crap. Either it's gonna be an OP, Vitiate's' going to get weakened again, the Smuggler's gonna whack him in the nuts, or all of the above.

Does Vitiate even have nuts?

Originally posted by Zenwolf
Tbh at this point, I'm wondering just how Vitiate is gonna die. Cause it seems at this point, him even being an Op boss would seem rather lackluster if he's just gonna keep getting more powerful at this point. Because then it's like....why did he not just kill everyone?

Just a story JK boss would also feel lackluster, tbh they should have just kept him as he was previously in the JK story. This still makes him powerful, but being able to be beaten....now it's just....I don't see how BW is gonna make his end, unless they shoehorn in some ridiculous stupid crap.


Some hints:

Similarly, word has filtered through the Sith Empire that the Dark Council is actively hunting their former Emperor while also working with renowned Sith alchemists on a plan to destroy the one they call Vitiate for good.

&

The Empire's highest ranking officers and dignitaries are now in a state of heightened alert, and the Dark Council has assembled a contingent of powerful Sith seers to get a fix on the Emperor’s presence.

Unconventional methods, perhaps. Though it remains to be seen if this plan works or not.

So Sith alchemists are gonna make/do a plan that kills Vitiate for good despite the fact, he's having all these ridiculous powerups like candy?...

That still seems lackluster, considering Vitiate is suppose to be the big/most powerfl bad dude and some Sith alchemists think they have a shot?....Wha?

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Does Vitiate even have nuts?

Let us keep in mind Vitiate was possessing a massive amount of the population, including powerful Sith and Jedi, was creating the second strongest Sithspawn we have seen in the lore out of pure Dark Side energy and then destroyed Ziost itself. All in spirit form.

These are three pieces of one whole feat not one feat alongside two others.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
So Sith alchemists are gonna make/do a plan that kills Vitiate for good despite the fact, he's having all these ridiculous powerups like candy?...

That still seems lackluster, considering Vitiate is suppose to be the big/most powerfl bad dude and some Sith alchemists think they have a shot?....Wha?


We don't know how Vitiate will perish. However, this won't be possible with conventional methods.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Because it invalidates your argument that the Sith Emperor could replicate this feat in physical form. 😬

If you are going to tell me to not jump to conclusions, then you cannot, by your own logic, jump to the conclusion Vitiate could replicate this feat in physical form. Do you accept that?


I am not jumping to conclusions right now. Vitiate's story is in progress so I am likely to refrain from speculating about this matter.

However, it is important to understand Vitiate's characteristics and capabilities. Vitiate seems to have evolved to a degree that he no longer needs a biological form to manipulate the Force. He have become a being of pure dark side energy, and is able to manipulate the Force unlike any mortal or preserved essence.

+

Vitiate have strongly pursued immortality since childhood; he went to great lengths to attain corporeal immortality.

He amasses an army of Sith followers and turns his back on Imperial politics to hone his skills in the dark side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

&

Lord Vitiate takes command of the Sith Empire, now in shambles following the Great Hyperspace War. He executes the Sith Council and consumes the life force of thousands of Sith Lords in a terrifying ritual that extends his life and vastly increases his capacity as a practitioner of the Force. Lord Vitiate declares himself Emperor of the Sith. Under his sovereign rule, the Empire retreats into deep space to rebuild its strength and prepare for vengeance.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

&

"But the ritual was not confined to the doomed Sith Lords. They were but the eye of the storm; the center of a vortex that spread across the entire planet. Every man, woman, and child on Nathema died that day. Every beast, bird, and fish; all the insects and plants; every living being touched by the Force was consumed. When the ritual ended, Nathema was no longer a world. It was a husk sucked dry. Lord Vitiate sacrificed millions, stealing their life force to make himself immortal. Their deaths also made him stronger than any Sith who had come before, and he ceased to be known as Lord Vitiate. On that day, the Emperor was truly born."

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

As a corporeally immortal being:

The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

&

Under the guidance of the Emperor—the immortal and all-powerful savior who still reigned over them even after a thousand years—they abandoned the hedonistic lifestyles of their barbaric ancestors.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

- Vitiate, continued to grow in power by virtue of feeding on the life force of other beings:

Servants of the Hand share their Master's longevity, living untouched by age for centuries under his command. In return, the Emperor draws on his servant's strength in the Force and body to feed his ever-increasing power, leaving the servants withered and frail.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

&

The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives.

Taken from [/B]Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia[/B]

However, after assassination attempts from Revan, Vitiate realized that corporeal immorality won't be sufficient for his safety and mastered Essence Transfer technique. He began to possess other individuals and use them as his hosts (i.e. Voice). However, an aspect of Vitiate's Essence Transfer feats is worth paying attention:

The Voice also wields the Emperor's incredible power and is capable of striking down anyone who displeases him. Those who converse with the Voice are overwhelmed with dread and unshakable obedience. To speak with the Voice is to speak with the Emperor himself.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Vitiate is able to imbue a host with his extraordinary power, while possessing it. At norm, a preserved essence is not able to augment the power of its host. However;

In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Vitiate have eventually evolved beyond the need of hosts or biological bodies to function and perform, he have become a being of pure dark side energy. So form or not, Vitiate can harness the Dark Side in extremely destructive ways. And his source of strength is feeding on life force of other beings and their deaths, essentially Force Drain related acts.

But I am curious:

Vitiate was a mortal at the time of Nathema ritual. He not only survived but significantly gained from this development. So what do you make of this?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
What if isn't good enough. You need proof. Given that the Sith Emperor's Voices were possessed biological forms, that experienced natural decay, this is not a likelihood.

See above

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Its not a maybe, its a fact, by your own admission the Sith Emperor lost power when his Voice died. This effect would have been magnified tenfold when Sidious' real body was destroyed.

No, Vitiate lost power from multiple factors that include:

1. Disruption of ultimate ritual
2. Loss of Voice
3. Loss of Children

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Hmm, those sources would seem to conflict. Regardless the point is Sidious managed to return to the physical plane by his own volition, whereas the Sith Emperor required aid.

The so-called aid is the act of Essence Transfer, for which a Hand was a suitable host. Vitiate used one of his Hands to arrive on Yavin IV and then resided in a Temple for recuperation, perfect setting.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Its called a logical inference. Both the Dark Temple and Yavin 4 where dark side nexuses, the Sith Emperor had the power to draw on these nexuses, it would be in his best interests to do so and he has no reason not to, therefore he did.

I do not deny this possibility but you are comparing Vitiate's essence to Palpatine's essence in wrong manner. You compare them holistically, and then you would understand the difference and my point.

Vitiate have evolved into a being of pure dark side energy. In contrast, Palpatine learned Essence Transfer and used this talent to shift his essence into a virtually endless supply of clones that he created.

The Emperor, who had been unable to fully implement Darth Plagueis's teachings and cheat death through the Force, had settled for a lesser solution that required cloning technology to create host bodies.

Taken from Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology

Palpatine depended upon physical bodies to perform impressive actions because his ability to manipulate the Force - in essence form - was significantly restricted. Upon acquiring the first clone host, Palpatine spent years fueling his power by feeding on the life force of populace of Byss and eventually became more powerful then he ever had been. This newfound strength enabled him to unleash destructive powers such as Force Storm at will.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No, I think the Hand's recovered his essence, I don't assume he traveled across time and space to possess them as Palpatine did.

Essence Transfer is not teleportation.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
So your telling me that it takes an equal amount of strength to drain one individual as it does two? Or two million? Am I correct in that assumption?

My point is that Force Drain doesn't changes form with numbers. Whether a Force-user drains a single individual or millions, the nature of his Force Drain talent doesn't changes. What happens is that the Force-user is able to draw more strength from other individuals, as number of his targets increase.

Palpatine fed on the life force of the populace of Byss using a Force Drain ability known as Drain Life Essence.

All living things are a part of and contribute to the Force; even those with no awareness of the Force are affected by and are a part of it. Many beings go through their daily lives wasting much of their life energy.

This power draws that life energy from beings, allowing a Jedi to use that energy to further his or her own ends.

Taken from The Dark Empire: Sourcebook

In contrast, Vitiate initially subjected the populace of Ziost to Drain Life Essence to feed on their life force but began to subject them to more advanced Force Drain powers by which he was able to feed on their deaths and later on consume them fully.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
No, I merely need to prove he could, and I have already done so.

Well, this is a possibility. Not documented evidence.

For comparison purpose, documented evidence holds more weightage.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
I am not jumping to conclusions right now. Vitiate's story is in progress so I am likely to refrain from speculating about this matter.
Good. You would do well to remember that.
But I am curious:

Vitiate was a mortal at the time of Nathema ritual. He not only survived but significantly gained from this development. So what do you make of this?

I take note that in order to perform this feat he required an extensive ritual in which 8,000 Sith Lords partook him and was done over the course of 10 days. The most complex ritual ever performed. It is quite obvious that the act of consuming a planet is a difficult and dangerous process, and not to be undertaken without sufficient preparation.
No, Vitiate lost power from multiple factors that include:

1. Disruption of ultimate ritual
2. Loss of Voice
3. Loss of Children

Incorrect. Otherwise the Emperor would have been incapacitated by these events alone. His "death" was the final and heaviest blow:

"The unexpected blow was a shock. The Emperor's consciousness was wrenched from his Voice. He know slumbers, gathering strength."

And he required external sources to restore his power and mobility, unlike Palpatine. This is the holistic interpretation, its a matter of agency.

But I'll address these matters another time, I'd like to focus on this:

My point is that Force Drain doesn't changes form with numbers. Whether a Force-user drains a single individual or millions, the nature of his Force Drain talent doesn't changes. What happens is that the Force-user is able to draw more strength from other individuals, as number of his targets increase.
Answer the following question:

Irrespective of the fact that the energy siphoned from those drained can be channeled into the act of further draining, does it require twice as much energy - again irrespective of where that energy may be derived - to consume two individuals in comparison to one?

Answer in few words, and without unnecessary fluff or evasion.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Incorrect. Otherwise the Emperor would have been incapacitated by these events alone. His "death" was the final and heaviest blow:

"The unexpected blow was a shock. The Emperor's consciousness was wrenched from his Voice. He know slumbers, gathering strength."

And he required external sources to restore his power and mobility, unlike Palpatine. This is the holistic interpretation, its a matter of agency.

I think the fact that Vitiate was so exhausted and weakened before he died has a big part in why he couldn't return so easily. He was broken and then killed.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
@LeGenD

Yeah, but that's why I said by your reasoning: ignoring canon statements about Sidious being the most powerful sith.


Let me get one thing straight, I do not ignore official disclosures. I understand the importance of official disclosures because I use them to support my arguments, and this is the only method to formulate credible arguments. This being said, I also take lore related developments seriously. Newer content tends to either reaffirm, build-on, or retcon earlier content.

It can be noticed that ever since characters such as Vitiate, The Ones, and Abeloth have been introduced to the mythos, Sidious's promotion as the most powerful Sith Lord and/or practitioner of the Dark Side have taken a back seat. In the few sourcebooks where these characters are referenced, Sidious is not hyped in the aforementioned manner. This does not means that Sidious is not counted among the best but that he have peers.

The most powerful Force-users/beings are:-

TIER 1

- Vitiate
- Darth Sidious
- Abeloth
- Father
- Son
- Daughter
- World Razer

TIER 2

- Darth Nihilus
- Tulak Hord
- Luke Skywalker
- Darth Nox

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Yeah, you see Palpatine wasn't ordinary so the force had to go out of its way to create its own champion, not sit and wait for some powerful force user to do its job And yes, Palpatine had Plagueis's help with the ritual, but he kept the force under his will way after Plagueis's death, which is why the force wasn't satisfied until Anakin killed him.

To be honest, I regard these matters as story elements that have more basis in philosophy then on character-oriented mechanics.

Practitioners of the Dark Side tend to create imbalance. This is why eliminating them, philosophically restores balance.

Keep this in mind:

The Force was omnipresent. It radiated stronger in certain places and at certain times, and the balance of the dark side and the light constantly shifted. But it was always there in some way, shape, or form.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
I already provided proof that Palpatine was the sole person who was cutting off the jedi order's ability to peer the future. Vitiate rose to power through rituals and aid, so I don't know why you're bringing that up Plagueis anyway. I can't help it Palpatine had the power to corrupt the entire force, bend it to his will, and keep it in check for years, whereas Vitiate in his thousands of years of existence could not despite multiple rituals. That's the difference in their power I guess.

Vitiate was extraordinarily powerful since childhood:

The child who will come to be known as the Sith Emperor is born. Black-eyed, heartless, and supremely strong in the dark side of the Force, the boy seizes control of his homeworld by the age of 13 and earns the title Lord Vitiate. He amasses an army of Sith followers and turns his back on Imperial politics to hone his skills in the dark side.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Also, TOR era content doesn't explores the matters of balance of the Force much. However, Vitiate is implied as a source of imbalance.

"The Force always strives for balance. The Emperor is an agent of darkness and destruction. It is inevitable that a champion of the light will one day rise to oppose him. I may be that champion."

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Also, I don't recall Vitiate attempting rituals to actively disrupt the balance. He didn't need to, his mere presence created imbalance by virtue of the aforementioned quote.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Palpatine's force storms are storms of electrical energy so potent that it literally destroys reality. In fact, according to The Comics Companion, Palpatine's last force storm threatened to consume ALL OF SPACE. Pretty insane huh? The source isn't written in in-universe context either; it's as objective as it gets. I'd say that is leagues beyond Vitiate's dark side nexus feat on Ziost. And Sidious can summon these things instantaneously. Just ridiculous. Too bad Vitiate couldn't unleash his wave in the same amount of time, otherwise it would be more useful in vs forums. But at least it does show Vitiate's mastery.

That is hyperbole.

If that was the case then that Force Storm would no have dissipated after consuming Sidious and his vessel.

Fact is that only Vitiate have on-screen demonstration of killing a planet so far. And also Vitiate summoned his most destructive powers on short notice.

Also, I don't get your bottom statement. It is really silly. Vitiate unleashed a tsunami of destructive dark side energy that engulfed the entire planet in less then a minute. And it is absolutely valid power for versus scenarios.