Most powerful Sith? Spring 2015 ed.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
[B]Just some quick thoughts before I go to bed:

Sidious experiences an intensification upon Plagueis's death. In the ROTS novelization, Mace Windu observes that the cloud upon the Force strangling Jedi perception continues to swell with each passing day and Obi-Wan detects that Count Dooku's death did nothing to halt or diminish it. On Mortis, the dying Father says that Anakin has brought balance to the world and that Anakin will eventually do it again for the rest of the universe.

The only time the dark side ever "halts" in all this is when Anakin kills Sheev at Endor. And it's important to note that the imbalance is never observed at any point prior to Darth Sidious.

I believe S66's point is that Sidious is the more cosmically malevolent figure than Vitiate and that Anakin was conceived to take him out.
In a sense, he's right: Plagueis's death cosmically accomplishes absolutely nothing. Nor does the death of Dooku, another extremely powerful Sith. In fact, all that time, the dark side continues to swell. The only time it stops is when Sidious himself is killed.

Now I'm not saying it's necessarily indicative of Sidious's "raw power" either. But he is right in that ultimately, it was more about Sidious than any other figure. Whether that has to do with raw power or Sidious's manipulations or all the above, I'm not sure. But to pretend Sidious is just another cog in the machine is factually untrue. He's vastly more important than even Plagueis tbh. 👆

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
My point was that Ant is trying to place Revan above Nihilus, when clearly Nihilus TK is above anything Revan has ever done.

Powerscaling is foreign as a concept to most Star Wars fans I've observed that don't debate outside of specialty boards like this :hmm

Perfect example like this?

Yamcha in DB has ass for feats

We're given an in story read of his power level from Android 20 later in the story that states his power level rivals Goku's from back in his fight from Vegeta in the Saiyan Arc. Kind of a given due to the fact Gero confused Yamcha for Goku

That said?

If that's the position you community holds? Fair enough to me.

The point I was making is that we can't take arbitrary statements from Surik as fact in anything.

Wouldn't exactly call her statement arbitrary given she's been in a position to actually judge each person involved, but that wasn't actually the contents of the post I was addressing.

You said the feats Ant mentioned were displays of raw power and that command =/= raw power

Which is all I ended up addressing

I have access to Google, thanks.

Could have fooled me :maybe

I thought a PL wasn't specified for Yamcha in that instance? Though he doesn't really have ass for feats if filler is taken into account.

But anyway.

Originally posted by Zenwolf
I thought a PL wasn't specified for Yamcha in that instance? Though he doesn't really have ass for feats if filler is taken into account.

The power level isn't relevant

The fact Gero confused Yamcha for Goku is the inference we need to determine how powerful he was by then

The board I visit general doesn't work with Anime, so the manga is all I was referring to when I say "ass for feats"

But anyway.

Yeah, no need to derail this already hilarious topic with Kiddo's obsession with Revan :maybe

It's not a bad thing, but its incredibly forced to bring it up as often as he does :hmm

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
The point I was making is that we can't take arbitrary statements from Surik as fact in anything.

Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Powerscaling is foreign as a concept to most Star Wars fans I've observed that don't debate outside of specialty boards like this :hmm

Perfect example like this?

Yamcha in DB has ass for feats

We're given an in story read of his power level from Android 20 later in the story that states his power level rivals Goku's from back in his fight from Vegeta in the Saiyan Arc. Kind of a given due to the fact Gero confused Yamcha for Goku

That said?

If that's the position you community holds? Fair enough to me.

Wouldn't exactly call her statement arbitrary given she's been in a position to actually judge each person involved, but that wasn't actually the contents of the post I was addressing.

You said the feats Ant mentioned were displays of raw power and that command =/= raw power

Which is all I ended up addressing

Could have fooled me :maybe

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
The statement was from the narrator, echoing the truth from Surik's mind. Given Meetra Surik could hardly comprehend Nihilus' devastation of Katarr when Marr told her, and that she realized Nihilus was "far more powerful" than she imagined previously when fighting him - yet she puts Revan > Nihilus - it's definitely a godly nice feat/accolade for Revan. 👆

Revan has comparable command over the Force than Yoda. 👆

Concession accepted.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Like I said, how would Surik actually know how powerful Nihilus is?

It doesn't matter if Surik knew how powerful Nihilus was, what matters is how powerful she thought he was. 👆

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
a.) from Visas Marr's accounts of Katarr.
b.) from Tobin's hype accounts of him.
c.) from literally facing Darth Nihilus. 😐

Originally posted by DarthAnt66

It doesn't matter if Surik knew how powerful Nihilus was, what matters is how powerful she thought he was. 👆

Off topic, the need to approve one's self in this thread is pretty lulzworthy.

Nothing suggests she can't sense how powerful Nihilus is. She trained extensively in Force Sense even as a Wound, and Nihilus' presence was definitely something very powerful - it corrupted his crew. Considering Nihilus, as a wound, could sense Meetra, the same should work both ways I guess. Plus, like I said, Meetra obviously knew how powerful Revan was in the Mando Wars via sensing him. She knew how powerful Nihilus was from the accounts of Katarr and him ragdolling her team with a wave of his hand. The official dialogue files of the game specifically say Nihilus was "far more powerful" than she imagined, despite her saying before that "to kill on such a scale... it's impossible. I don't understand - it would have taken several Republic cruisers to destroy the surface of Katarr."

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Nihilus and Revan are from the exact same setting. Power-scaling is not needed.

And so are Yamcha and Goku

I'm drawing a blank on what you're even trying to convey here, because its incredibly nonsensical :hmm

Revan could not TK fleets in KotOR, the first or the second, anymore than he can in TOR. Nihilus, on the other hand, can.

And Yamcha has never so much as blown up a building

He's more powerful than a guy that detonated a moon and about as powerful as one that can blow up a planet.

Like I noted, powerscaling really is a foreign concept, but that's ok, you guys don't need to use it

There's also the fact that the Exile cannot sense how powerful Nihilus is regardless.

How so?

Ignoring the fact she was being directly assaulted by Nihilus' most powerful attack on the Ravager while he continued to exert force on the ship to keep it together?

Nothing about being a void in the force makes you invisible to others. Both Nihilus and Marr kind of felt Surik from across the galaxy even IIRC.

Yes. And you addressed it wrong.

Was there a post made before hand that I missed that added a different context to the one I mentioned?

Ant's said before that Revan has comparable "raw power" to Yoda, and yet I've never seen him say that Revan "has a comparable command over the Force."

How exactly does what Ant does or does not say hold any relevance to what you or I said? :hmm

My intent, because definitions rely on context as much as anything, was obvious.

Only definition 1 or 2 would really begin to fit the passage, so I'm not sure what you're on about :hmm

Cheeky. The emoticon use without actual emoticons is also kind of weird.

Half the fun comes from irreverent banter

I'm from another board and I'm too lazy to image link the actual emoticons *shrugs*

Originally posted by AncientPower
Nihilus > Vitiate tbh, Nihilus is the darkness in which all life dies tbh.

Vitiate have collapsed structures, corrupted the atmosphere of a planet (i.e. Dromund Kaas), created a powerful nexus of dark side energy (i.e. Dark Temple region), overwhelmed Strike Teams of powerful Force-users in single combat on different occasions, demonstrated the capability to drain subjects from light-years distances, created powerful beings of pure dark side energy, possessed living beings (including Force-users) on planetary-scale, exerted influence on galactic scale by creating vessels that served as his eyes and ears in different worlds, and ravaged a planet with Force Drain powers (i.e. Ziost).

Vitiate have become so powerful that he cannot be restrained or destroyed with conventional means:

And Vitiate is likely to consume all in the galaxy in time, if not stopped:

"No one person - not even Revan - can truly destroy the Emperor. He will destroy Revan, then move on to the rest of us. In time, he will consume all life in the galaxy." (Darth Marr)

--

Darth Nihilus was unstable, he had to consume other living beings for sustenance. This, in addition to, drawing strength from his followers to fuel his power and satiate is hunger. His condition granted him incredible capacity to wield the Force but it also became his greatest shortcoming. And it is stated that Nihilus would have eventually self-destructed because his hunger would have eventually overwhelmed him.

"He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls." (Darth Traya)

So while Darth Nihilus have some fantastic feats, his instability is a major shortcoming that would eventually destroy him. Keep this in mind.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Something has been accomplished, we've demonstrated that Darth Nihilus has greater power showings than Lord Vitiate. We've also done the same for Darth Sidious.

1.DE Sidious
2.Darth Nihilus
3.Lord Vitiate

Use of metaphors, plot elements, hyperboles, and exaggerated generalizations to fellate 1 and 2, isn't a sound progress. These are indications of insecurity and personal biases.

By the way, Vitiate is stated to possess immeasurable power.

"Immeasurable power" is very much hyperbole, and it's not an accolade that's exclusive to Vitiate either.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan, as of the Battle of Malachor V since that was the last time Meetra Surik has ever seen Revan, was more powerful than anyone else she had ever met, automatically making him superior to the likes of the Sith Triumvirate: Darth Nihilus, Darth Traya, and Darth Sion:

"It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater then that of anyone else she had ever met."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Revan had grown "far more powerful" since the Battle of Malachor V according to canon, which means then that Revan is logically "far more powerful" than any member of the Sith Triumvirate and Meetra Surik during his Revan Reborn incarnation in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan:

"Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now.."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

LMAO.

Originally posted by AncientPower
Something has been accomplished, we've demonstrated that Darth Nihilus has greater power showings than Lord Vitiate. We've also done the same for Darth Sidious.

1.DE Sidious
2.Darth Nihilus
3.Lord Vitiate

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Revan, as of the Battle of Malachor V since that was the last time Meetra Surik has ever seen Revan, was more powerful than anyone else she had ever met, automatically making him superior to the likes of the Sith Triumvirate: Darth Nihilus, Darth Traya, and Darth Sion:

"It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater then that of anyone else she had ever met."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Revan had grown "far more powerful" since the Battle of Malachor V according to canon, which means then that Revan is logically "far more powerful" than any member of the Sith Triumvirate and Meetra Surik during his Revan Reborn incarnation in Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan:

"Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now.."
―Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

As a wound in the Force he's in many respects an antithesis of that. I mean, lets recall Kreia's comparison between Revan and Exile when she was a wound in the Force:

"Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force."

But in terms of the Exile:

"You are different. When I look at you, it is like staring at the death of the Force."

And on Nihilus Kreia also says:

"There is no strength in the hunger he possesses… and the will behind his power is a primal thing."

Nihilus' "command" of the Force is not like that of other Force users, he uses the antithesis of the Force to achieve power which in turn is destroying him, and for that reason the Exile may have made him exempt from comparison.

Especially considering when she sensed Nihilus she would have sensed, well, nothing.

Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Anakin was already well born then, however. I realize what Sidious did AFTER Plagueis death, just as we all realize Anakin was born BEFORE it.

The Prophecy of the Chosen One was made before either Plagueis or Sidious even existed, it was preempting Sidious' rise to power which began with Plagueis, but it still culminated with Sidious as the sole threat and solely responsible source of imbalance.

The Chosen One wasn't created to stop Sidious and Plagueis, but Sidious alone.

This does nothing to disprove the point that Anakin was born in response to something Plagueis and Sidious did together.

He didn't respond to it, he responded with Sidious.

Again, it's clear Sidious maintained whatever he and Plagueis started. It does not change that Sidious did not begin these things on his own, and that Anakin was not born specifically because Sidious existed, which is the argument S66 actually made.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
it was there presence in the Force that was causing the imbalance

I'm not sure that's what Luceno was trying to get across. Apparently Tenebrous' master did something to the Force which helped facilitate the later shenanigans.

Vitiate have been hyped in encyclopedic mediums and Bioware themselves as god-like being, with supreme command of the Dark Side.

Please tell me when any other Sith Lord have immeasurable power, backed up by accolades/hype and various other ground realities.