Originally posted by NewGuy01
If it's common knowledge, then do provide at least one source saying so. Otherwise it's just common conjecture.Meanwhile, I have the quote from PoD to rest on.
No sources just logic based on force users resistance to force attacks that would have been debilitating to a non force users.
Originally posted by FreshestSlice
Are you ready to admit you're ****ing retarded? Stalemate? I mean goddamn. For someone how claimed the novel is the end all be all, you sure act like you've never read it.
Regardless are you denying that Galen was able to dish out similar attacks as Yoda at Sidious in these scans and that he was able to defend against the following lightning for a time while Yoda was not?
Okay, since you're insistent on being ****ing retarded, I'll say this as simply as possible. Sidious not only wanted Marek alive, to replace Vader, he also wanted the Rebels, get this dead. He's not targeting Starkiller. He's targeting the Rogue Shadow which is considerably larger than a person and thus can't be hit with one bolt. And even then, Marek needed Oneness to compete. In short, you've said some idiotic things in the past, but this just takes the cake.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Actually, it really can't.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I think you'd both be better off if you stopped arguing about semantics and look at the feat itself.
A comparison between the two only makes sense in the context of assessing the level of difficulty involved in conjuring an expression of Force Drain power that is potent enough to kill a world and conjuring a Force Storm that can achieve similar results.
We have quantitative evidence of the number of individuals involved in making a Nathema-like event possible; nearly the entire Jedi Order. Alternatively, it takes a Force Wound-based feeding monstrosity (i.e. Darth Nihilus) to pull-off the same. Its a demonstration of a godlike power as per the standards of Star Wars saga.
Coming towards the Force Storm; an ancient but powerful artifact Dark Staff could be used to conjure this power but Force-users could learn the technique as well. However, it might take a group of average Force-users to conjure one successfully.
Palpatine had spent years mastering the technique and he also utilized the entire populace of planet Byss as a reservoir of energy to fuel his power; therefore, he was able to conjure a Force Storm on his own. However, I believe that he still had limitations in this regard.
Valkorion is as close to being godlike as an individual can get, IMO.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I think you just pulled that out of your ass.
Revan's holocron revealed that Force Drain powers are really difficult to master and utilize offensively. This revelation is reinforced by the fact that Darth Bane really struggled in the use of such powers (he drew strength from the nexus setting in the process) and he is an example of a powerful Sith Lord. Of-course, select-few Force-users might be gifted in the use of Force Drain powers but this doesn't implies that they had it easy.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
It can't. It can destroy the surfaces of worlds, "killing it" in the same sense that Valkorion kills planets.
But member Beniboybling is arguing otherwise.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
It's the friggin' Jedi Temple, though. Bringing down something like that on a whim with telekinesis is absolutely astonishing.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I do.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
👆 tbh
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Let's just say that the statement in question is a metaphor.
A metaphor for what?
Yes; the two Force powers are intrinsically different in nature and affect the external environment differently accordingly. It is silly to compare the two powers in the aspect of destroying solid matter. Force Drain powers are intended to consume soft targets (only); the most powerful expressions of Force Drain might pack sufficient kinetic energy to collapse structures and cause seismic activity in the region but these developments are not intentional.
I would actually say death fields and the like cause erosion through unnatural corrosion rather than impact.
My friend, I tend to do some homework before making an assertion.Revan's holocron revealed that Force Drain powers are really difficult to master and utilize offensively. This revelation is reinforced by the fact that Darth Bane really struggled in the use of such powers (he drew strength from the nexus setting in the process) and he is an example of a powerful Sith Lord. Of-course, select-few Force-users might be gifted in the use of Force Drain powers but this doesn't implies that they had it easy.
Emphasis on "utilize in combat", which is not what Valkorion did on Ziost.
You agreeing with me or him?
You, I think.
Originally posted by NephthysOkay, I'm not going to indulge this attempt to justify yourself by debating semantics, so moving on.
So let me get this straight: You think Revan was so absurdly more powerful than Nyriss was that he could straight up tank an attack infinitely more powerful than the one that was able to instantly burn her to ash even after having to expend power getting through her barrier. And you think this qualifies as "defenseless".So you're still being a moron.
In any case, prove this theory with a direct quote. The book gave us a direct comparison between Nyriss and Revan. Obviously Revan managed to block some of the attack, otherwise he'd have died. You selectively highlighted the quote, it says he failed to draw them in and contain them, a perfectly valid alternative is that he drew them in and couldn't contain all of the energy. Or that he was only able to draw in and contain some of the attack.
However, the fact remains that Revan was using a defensive technique, so the idea that he was defenseless is utterly absurd.
My argument is that because of the proportion of Vitiate's attack, Revan was unable to contain the bolts and therefore, unable to attempt to absorb them. The lightning therefore struck his body unmitigated, meaning Vitiate largely circumvented rather than overpowered his defense.
Clear? Cool. Now I will concede that the text does not exclude the possibility of Revan mitigating or at least attempting to mitigate some of Vitiate's lightning (though explicitly not all), but I'd also point that it remains equally possible he mitigated none, seeing as the text does not mention him doing so, and if anything is more likely because of that.
Which brings me onto your other point, that its supposedly impossible for that the latter to be the case for stated reasons.
To which I'd respond that, as I have said in the past, that what is impossible is that Nyriss would be incapable of defending herself against her own attack and not only that but be killed by it, without extenuating circumstances. Just as it would be impossible and illogical to conclude Nyriss can one shot an individual equal to her in strength. Logically speaking her barrier would have cancelled it out, or at least mitigated its lethality.
So either her defenses are and were just atrocious, Revan significantly added to its strength, and/or the act of conjuring a Force storm intended to one shot Meetra and Scourge left her in the immediate aftermath exhausted, and therefore highly vulnerable.
Either way it makes your comparison inadequate.
Though as far as I'm concerned, partially mitigated or not at all, his tutanimis was not applied successfully, and he would have done potentially a lot better if Vitiate had unleashed a concentrated stream he could contain.
But hardly unique. Pre-Ruusan Jedi were capable of utilising the technique. If it were truly so powerful as to threaten all of space, a concept absurd enough to safely ignore entirely imo, they would surely have sought to eliminate all knowledge of such an incomprehensibly dangerous technique.Besides the point really, however I will point out that:
1. Who said they didn't? It was branded a forbidden power by the Jedi, and there's no evidence to suggest Palpatine learnt the technique from a holocron.
2. Much like Force drain, it evidently scales with the power of the wielder. At its most basic level a Force storm is just the creation of a hyperspace wormwhole, whereas the destructive power Palpatine affected is unprecedented.
No, they erected a defense but Sidious' lightning tore through it. Or in the case of Windu he wanted to torture him like he would Luke, instead of just turn him to ash boringly. As with Yoda it can be seen that Yoda managed to block enough of the damage to not be killed, but merely wounded.You pulled that out of your ass, Windu was in no position to defend himself at all and Yoda reacted too slowly to do anything. Oh and in the novel he hits him full on in mid air, still didn't die.
(I could also swear that you've used the "Sidious overpowered Yoda's defenses in that scene, therefore his lightning > Vitiate's" argument before. Which would make you a dirty, dirty hypocrite)I argued that knocking out a defenseless (in the respect he failed to erect a barrier/absorb the attack etc.) Yoda >= knocking out a defenseless Arcann, yes. Not sure how that makes me a hypocrite.
Gosh, it's almost as if Force Users have some manner of Force defenses or something.Hot damn! Maybe its those passive defenses your expressly denying the existence of! You having been reading my responses, right?
Or that Dooku was weakened and tired when he did that to Ventress and co. Or that he had a reason not to kill Skywalker. Hmm.Regarding Ventress I was referring to this moment:
When he was not weakened and absolutely wanted her dead.
Granted he probably refrained from killing Anakin but then he struggles just render the guy unconscious here despite Annie being weakened and in a Force grip:
There are plenty more examples (like Arcann being struck by Valkorion's lightning head on without so much as a burn to show for it) I can do this all day. 🙂
Doesn't PoD dispel that notion by talking about how Force users were trained to always keep up a barrier so as not to get blindsided by cheap force attacks? If they could just resist weak attacks innately it would be irrelevant.Err, no, that's actually exactly what I'm referring to. And for the record Syndicate called them innate, not me. To be specific we are talking about passive defenses trained Force users have instinctively about them in a combat situation (or in many cases all the time), that require no gesture to erect and provide limited protection against Force based attacks, including lightning. Hence why when a Force user is struck head on by lethal lightning, they do not die.
Passive defenses Revan would obviously have about himself in combat against Emperor Vitiate, therefore, if the attack was unmitigated by his tutanimis, we've no reason to assume he'd be incinerated.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDThe Darkstaff was only able to create a hyperspace wormhole, not the destructive power Palpatine could unleash.
Coming towards the Force Storm; an ancient but powerful artifact Dark Staff could be used to conjure this power but Force-users could learn the technique as well. However, it might take a group of average Force-users to conjure one successfully.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenDIncorrect, that only allowed him to conjure them with ease. His most potent Force storm was conjured without any external aid, seemingly with ease regardless, and while weakened no less.
Palpatine had spent years mastering the technique and he also utilized the entire populace of planet Byss as a reservoir of energy to fuel his power; therefore, he was able to conjure a Force Storm on his own. However, I believe that he still had limitations in this regard.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
A metaphor for what?
Originally posted by NewGuy01
I would actually say death fields and the like cause erosion through unnatural corrosion rather than impact.
Though your point might also be true. Both happened.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Emphasis on "utilize in combat", which is not what Valkorion did on Ziost.
Originally posted by NewGuy01
You, I think.