Originally posted by Beniboybling
I was expressing disbelief. How an earth are either Maul or Savage stronger than Yoda?
Of course naturally both savage and maul are stronger than yoda. However through augmentation they do become even stronger but due to Yodas greater command of the force he could boost it to a higher level. Of course me saying that they are stronger was a bit much. More like the two are strong physically and then when they boost there power with augmentation they become very strong. So this is basically showing Sidious is strong and come overcome opponents. Also this is also counteracted by Yodas small stature and lack of any physical strength as he is small and can't mount any strength oriented front.
But there are not as strong as Yoda, so its not really proof Sidious can overpower or match Yoda's strength.
Also bear in mind that Yoda's primary style is Ataru. A form that resolves around overpowering one's opponents with a ferocious combination of strength and speed. Yoda is all about a strength orientated front, I wouldn't judge him by his size.
Indeed, Sidious is a frail old man too. And yet he whooped Maul & Savage's butts did he not?
Originally posted by Beniboybling
But there are not as strong as Yoda, so its not really proof Sidious can overpower or match Yoda's strength.Also bear in mind that Yoda's primary style is Ataru. A form that resolves around overpowering one's opponents with a ferocious combination of strength and speed. Yoda is all about a strength orientated front, I wouldn't judge him by his size.
Indeed, Sidious is a frail old man too. And yet he whooped Maul & Savage's butts did he not?
Well when he's used force augmentation no due to him having a greater command of the force. Also do you honestly believe if yoda were to try and overpower maul through strength it would actually work. Also this maul and savage are not to be discounted no matter what. This shows he can overcome strength oriented attacks.
Actually yoda is about speed. That is all yoda really has is his amazing speed. Yes ataru is meant for strength but Yodas size and physical state must be taken into account. Yoda being that small and that light is the reason he flew farther than palpatine along with him being on the bad end of the pod. So point being yoda is about a speed front not a strength front. His small stature doesn't allow him the strength or leverage to mount a strength front.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Cautious coward? Cautious perhaps but when has Sidious ever been shown to be cowardly? And what does that have to do with him getting angry?Fact is Sidious was pissed, and that's not normal, so there must have been a reason. Sure Sith are more quick to anger but they don't do so without reason.
Yeah, all these prove that Yoda was a legit challenge for Sidious. Something I never denied.
Sidious doesn't break off of his own volition, instead it's quite clear from Yoda's expression and movement that Yoda gathers the strength to throw off Sidious' attempt to overpower him (and indeed we have no basis for saying Sidious "comfortably pulls his saber back" when Sidious isn't even in the picture, only his blade.) Sidious then switches from glee to rage mode (read frustration) and presumably attempts to hit him with a harder attack, as the first just failed.In the second saber lock their sabers locked, it was not just another clash, a saber lock is when two blades come together in a proverbial arm wrestle as they attempt to overpower one another. It is quite clear from Sidious' strained expression that that is what he is trying to do, and he is having difficulty with Yoda's strength.
To be specific, Sidious thrusts his blade down, Yoda thrusts up to counter him. And yet look again at the scene.
Notice that despite Sidious striking down, his arms (by looking at his shoulder) appears to be moving upward, because Yoda is pushing his downward strike back. And again he throws it off, because Yoda is stronger. Simply put Sidious repeatedly attempts to dominate Yoda, and fails.You mean Yoda's inherent size disadvantage is being negated. Higher ground for Yoda is normal height for everyone else, if anything it was a more fair playing field.Maybe, but consider the following:
Again, these are all very common in a duel. They don't prove Yoda's superiority just that it was a very challenging fight for Sidious.
First Sidious' defining weakness is his overconfidence. Overconfidence. He has an inflated view of his own abilities, and yet still he tried to flee. If Sidious and Yoda were equally matched or Yoda was weaker, Sidious' arrogance would lead him to think he was better, Yoda would have to be legitimately stronger for him to second guess himself. Remembering that as Palpatine he's had plenty of time to assess Yoda's powers for this arguably inevitable confrontation.Secondly in the words of Dooku "You lack a vital quality found in all Sith. Sith have no fear, and I sense much fear in you." For Sidious to be afraid is not only uncharacteristic for him, but of the nature of the Sith itself. A Sith would not flee, unless he really believed he would lose.He did dominate the Force fight, your not addressing the entirety of my argument, not only did Sidious have him beat in sabers, but he reflected his lightning back at him twice.
He is also a genius who doesn'tt act emotionally. He has spent his entire life to achieve what he achieved in ROTS. When he realized Yoda was indeed a lethal threat, he most likely thought its not worth it. Again, doesn't prove what you want it to prove.
Sidious gaining the high ground had nothing to do with his supposed superiority in the Force, which we infer from the script, and the notion that Sidious could have taken him out with the pods is pure and baseless speculation, as is the notion that Sidious could have sent the spinning pod back at Yoda. Fact is he didn't, he abandoned the high ground and allowed Yoda to close the gap.In that respect the Senate pod barrage failed, and was another win for Yoda.
Is that really supposed to mean something? Sidious had the high ground, which made it easier to dodge and harder for Yoda to return fire.I'd ask that you prove that. The script makes it clear he overwhelmed him on both occasions, and the second occasions it's quite evident from the clips I provided.Again, your not engaging with my argument directly, your avoiding it.If I had no real argument you'd be addressing it directly, rather than saying I have no real argument from a proverbial distance.In the contexts of a lightsaber duel, the only way "it looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed" can be interpreted is "it looks as if the Dark Lord is going to lose and die." Which for the record is not at all the basis of my argument, but merely reaffirms that in those scenes I provided, Lucas intended for it to look as if Yoda was beating him.
Wait, hold on. So the outcome does mean victory and there for superiority? That was the main argument in favor of Sidious at first but you decided to analyze the details and tried to make an argument with them but when I do the same, you try to refute my arguments by saying the outcome was in favor of Yoda? I don't think I'm the one who is avoiding arguments.
Finally, though there are other things you didn't directly address, you totally overlooked this:
Sidious seeking refuge isn't really surprising since he tried to run from the beginning of the fight. Again, Yoda is the assassin where Sidious is defending himself. That's the main characteristic of the fight.
What exactly do you want me to address regarding the second part?
Originally posted by SiniousFair enough.
Yeah, all these prove that Yoda was a legit challenge for Sidious. Something I never denied.
Again, these are all very common in a duel. They don't prove Yoda's superiority just that it was a very challenging fight for Sidious.How does this notion that they are - in your opinion - "very common in a duel" disprove the fact that Sidious was overpowered in both blade locks?
He is also a genius who doesn'tt act emotionally. He has spent his entire life to achieve what he achieved in ROTS. When he realized Yoda was indeed a lethal threat, he most likely thought its not worth it. Again, doesn't prove what you want it to prove.The point is that by recognising Yoda as a lethal threat i.e. an individual who could very possibly kill him, Sidious was recognising him as more powerful.
Wait, hold on. So the outcome does mean victory and there for superiority? That was the main argument in favor of Sidious at first but you decided to analyze the details and tried to make an argument with them but when I do the same, you try to refute my arguments by saying the outcome was in favor of Yoda? I don't think I'm the one who is avoiding arguments.Eh? When you quote 6 or 7 of someones points at once and then say something non-descript and seemingly irrelevant, tends not to make sense.
Not really sure what your talking about, but it doesn't appear to be a response to any one of my points.
Sidious seeking refuge isn't really surprising since he tried to run from the beginning of the fight. Again, Yoda is the assassin where Sidious is defending himself. That's the main characteristic of the fight."Characteristic of the fight?" I realise that they are actors with a script Sin, but we are discussing this from an in-universe perspective where they are real people and fights don't have "flavours". They have winners and losers, and Sidious retreating from Yoda's attack demonstrates he was losing.
What exactly do you want me to address regarding the second part?I'd like for you to explain that despite supposedly winning/stalemating, Sidious dropped his lightsaber and was almost pushed off the podium.