Palpatine & Vitiate vs Luke & Yoda

Originally posted by psmith81992
I don't think they disappeared as much as what the Spurs did. It was literally the best brand of basketball I've ever seen and that includes Jordan's bulls.

Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh both averaged around 14-15 pts per game on low fg%, and Wade had a 27.5% usage rate. Their quality of play diminished significantly from the 2013 title year, where Wade had a couple of 30 point explosions.

The brand in and of itself is perhaps the most effective method ever, but I'd take the 1996 bulls over any squad in history with potential exceptions such as peak russell/peak bird celtics, peak magic lakers, and peak wilt sixers.

Originally posted by psmith81992
No. I'm using the wording and your interpretation in a similar context. It doesn't have to be star wars and lightsabers and "pew pew" for it to work.

And I'm telling you that my interpretation of the wording varies mostly cause the function of the context changes with your example.

And again, I'm pretty sure there is a quote that says Sidious bested him so I'm not sure why Tempest felt the need to bring up this quote in the first place.

Originally posted by Branlor Swift
When has Yoda's size been a disadvantage for him and when has Sidious' size been an advantage for him? If we're going entirely by assumptions then that opens the doors for all sorts of made up fantasy shit. The fact remains that neither showed anything that would garner favor over the other in a featureless environment. If all we're going on is facts, then you'd have to conclude a stalemate based entirely on that fight in a featureless environment. Nothing more, nothing less.

Which you would be using the pods to say he had the advantage? Nevermind the fact that Yoda didn't try to whip pods, but he actually stopped one backed by Sidious' might and threw it back at him where Sidious didn't even try to stop it. 😬
I'd like to think stopping an object cold that was backed by Sidious' power is a better feat than merely picking it up and throwing it. Though I'm not saying it proves better tk, but both showings in that regard were tip top in that fight.

It depends entirely on the wording. Nothing we saw in that fight showed superiority. If anything it portrayed two exact equals.

I'm not denying Sidious won or "bested" him, but that was less a case of Sidious' raw power advantage and more a case of bad placement by Yoda. Hell the backlash alone should prove how close they were.

Maybe Sidious' stamina would prevail in an extended fight, but we can't conclude that by what we saw. An unfortunate fall ended a fight early, like falls are want to do in Star Wars. Basically you have to look through other feats to try and pit one over the other, because that fight did anything but show a stronger combatant.

Yoda never faced a duelist as skilled and fast as Sidious. Yoda's style of dueling is a very exhausting one. He(thanks to the Chancellor's podium) was on a higher ground than he normally would have been and so he didn't have to jump as high as he normally has to to match his opponents saber. This wouldn't be the case on neutral ground.

How did Sidious gain the upper hand and forced Yoda in to dodging the pods he was sending in the first place if he isn't more capable?

Again, if you can undervalue Sidious' victory in the force by blaming the circumstances, I can do the same to undervalue Yoda's victory in sabers.

I'm not saying the fight showed a clear superior combatant but that Sidious performed better and that he was on the winning side of that stalemate. 2 different combatants can never be exact equals(other than unique cases like the Son and Daughter). The fight as you said ended prematurely and how it would end if it lasted until one of them died is not clear in the movies. The material we have in the EU should be taken seriously as long as it doesn't contradict with the movies. And since its stated that Sidious bested him and that Sidious was too much for him + Sidious' superior feats, I believe its fair to declare him the superior combatant but admittedly, they're extremely close in pretty much everything.

And again, I'm pretty sure

The brand in and of itself is perhaps the most effective method ever, but I'd take the 1996 bulls over any squad in history with potential exceptions such as peak russell/peak bird celtics, peak magic lakers, and peak wilt sixers.

Originally posted by psmith81992
There's your problem.

I'll find it when I can.

Originally posted by psmith81992
Well no you misunderstand. Jordan's Bulls (all 6 teams) are all pretty much in the top 15 in everything and the 96 team is the greatest ever assembled. I'm just saying in the 2014 NBA finals, I've never seen a team play better.

Ah, understood and agreed with then. Though as a team I'd imagine Russell's best finals squad/performance would be a contender.

Originally posted by Sinious
Yoda never faced a duelist as skilled and fast as Sidious. Yoda's style of dueling is a very exhausting one. He(thanks to the Chancellor's podium) was on a higher ground than he normally would have been and so he didn't have to jump as high as he normally has to to match his opponents saber. This wouldn't be the case on neutral ground.

How did Sidious gain the upper hand and forced Yoda in to dodging the pods he was sending in the first place if he isn't more capable?

Again, if you can undervalue Sidious' victory in the force by blaming the circumstances, I can do the same to undervalue Yoda's victory in sabers.

I'm not saying the fight showed a clear superior combatant but that Sidious performed better and that he was on the winning side of that stalemate. 2 different combatants can never be exact equals(other than unique cases like the Son and Daughter). The fight as you said ended prematurely and how it would end if it lasted until one of them died is not clear in the movies. The material we have in the EU should be taken seriously as long as it doesn't contradict with the movies. And since its stated that Sidious bested him and that Sidious was too much for him + Sidious' superior feats, I believe its fair to declare him the superior combatant but admittedly, they're extremely close in pretty much everything.

Also the jumping around has never been shown to be an issue in battle. Sure you can assume in the long run it'd be an issue but Yoda simply not jumping higher doesn't change the entire course of a fight. You're reaching severely.
You might as well say Yoda would have an easier time cutting off his feet in a featureless environment. He was at a feet severing disadvantage you see.

Because that's the way battles go. People use the force and sometimes they don't. Sidious used the force and Yoda dodged until he used the force and forced Sidious to dodge. It's not anything special to be the only one using the force. Both of them showed immense tk in that scene with examples being different yet both impressive. Sidious with how easy it was to throw them, and Yoda with his stopping a Sidious propelled pod cold and spinning it and throwing it back.
Maybe Yoda realized he wasn't going to get close if he didn't directly put a stop to it? Which seems like the reason.

But you can't do the same, that's the issue. You're going by some made up excuses, and I'm using what was shown in the actual scene. If you think "Yoda didn't have to jump as high" is the same as "both were pushed back about the same but Yoda was at the edge and Sidious had like 10 feet of land" then I don't know what to say.
Do you disagree that both were pushed back a ways and Yoda was at the edge or something? Do you disagree that had they been in reversed positions that Sidious would have fell based on how far he was pushed back or something? Because if you do, then you're merely covering your ears and saying you don't like it. There's absolutely no reason again based on the amount both flew that the one closest to the edge wasn't going on a huge drop. Which is my point. I'm not undervaluing Palpatine, I'm simply applying logic to what happened. If the positions were reversed and Palpatine ran away because he smashed into hard objects and seemed to hurt himself in the process then Yoda would have "bested" him and I'd be making the same argument on Palpatine's behalf. It's not rocket appliances. I have no dog in this race, I'm simply trying to portray it in a way that makes sense to you.

And Sidious only came out on the winning side because of a fall. Like I said, it'd be like saying Jango is more powerful than Obi Wan. Different circumstances but same result.

I'm not going by EU though. I'm simply going by the fight. Though EU is exactly what I said would be a better place to look.

But looking at the fight and assuming Sidious straight up bested him doesn't work considering if we assume the quote is real then Sidious only bested him because of Yoda's placement. If we look at the fight we can see that they were equals. The whole "never true equals" is semantics.

Sabers: No advantage for either. Both performed exceptional.
Force: Sidious threw tons of force pods while Yoda was able to stop one of his and throw it back which is more impressive than picking up a static object and throwing it. However Sidious' volume compensates for that. This is really just a push.
And then we have them both using the force in a backlash that propelled both equal distances. The X factor was placement.

If they weren't exact equals they were about the closest we're ever going to see outside the Ones.

However, I'm not sure I'm of the opinion that EU feats would prevail outside DE. We saw in direct combat that for Sidious' better feats it gained him no leverage. Why should we assume that looking at his history as a whole would gain leverage when it didn't in a direct showdown?

What would be of better use would be to go by something you touched on earlier and I did as well. Stamina.
If we go by unlimited power of Sidious then he would win in an extended fight as sooner or later Yoda would start slowing down. Which although they stalemated definitively IMO, Sidious has more reserves and that should net him the win over an equal. That doesn't mean he's more powerful, but it means he should win.

The fight might have ended early but I've no allusions that if it lasted as long as Anakin vs Obi Wan did that Yoda would start to falter.

The possible "bested" comments existing and "the battle being too much" don't actually touch on the circumstances and don't paint a real picture. However Sidious' power reserves and the fact that he was equal with Yoda point you in a much better direction. It's not always about blindly accepting whatever's stated. Sometimes you have to apply some thought to it is what my point is.

Is all.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
"Given a proper sample size," hence the potential for inconsistency. That said, even if we directly scale Kawhi Leonard's raw numbers per 36 minutes (not factoring in other potential circumstances, mind you,) they're still inferior to Lebron's.

Oh. Yeah, you're right about the Kawhi stuff but I thought you were using per 36 to also say that Kobe's numbers do him an injustice.

@Branlor Swift,

Damn that is a long reply. I'll respond as soon as I can.

I usually keep them shorter when I have my phone. In any case I'll switch to my laptop in a reply.

But anyway Yoda vs Palpatine is basically Frieza vs Goku. One simply has more stamina. But that doesn't mean there's a power difference before hand is what I'm saying.

And I disagree heavily with "battle was too much" and "bested" being indicators to decide Sidious was more powerful when we were shown everything but that. Just another prematurely ended duel. You either have to go with EU feats and ignore the duel or try and mish mash them in a way that says Sidious was holding back, to get Sidious being noticably above. Imo

To sum it up.

Onto this battle. This depends entirely whether or not Luke can beat Vitiate if Yoda fights Sidious (perpetual stalemate for quite a while). Or if we place Luke vs Sidious and Yoda vs Vitiate.
It's not really decided by a team format unless they switch off in duels. Someone needs to come out on top to help the other.

More to the point, equals can have winners and losers. Yoda and Sidious are 5/10. The actual fight that happened in ROTS happened to be one of Sidious' 5.

More to the point of his battle, however, is that Sidious gets more out of Dark Empire then Yoda gets out of being 200 years younger.

Irrespective of what the guide says, I think if you look closely at the duel (and the script), Yoda actually appears to be superior, and a stronger Force user than at least ROTS Sidious.

I mean first off, Sidious outright tries to flee the confrontation before it even begins, and he is visibly afraid.

Yoda overpowers Sidious on several occassions, making Sidious visibly angry as opposed to his usual glee:

And according to the script, which I believe is G-Canon by the old EU rules in the portions of the duel we do not see Yoda drives Palpatine back:

PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena.

And then pretty much defeats him in lightsaber combat:

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

Yoda has the guy beat in terms of Force powers as well:

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

Doomed people. Doomed. Palps was flat out losing.

Then Palpatine gets the high ground. Not because of superior ability, he just does:

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.

For some reason Yoda breaks off his assault and lets Palps get away. *shrug*

And then we have the final confrontation of Force abilities, in which it appears at least to me, that Yoda is quite clearly winning:

Palps intially pushes him back, but Yoda finds his resolve and Palpatine is visibly overwhelmed, just as he was in the scripted scenes we did not see. The script itself, saying the following:

YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA.

So again, irrespective of what the guide says, I think its pretty obvious the movie sought to depict Yoda as superior. And what the guide says is intepretable and generalised. It was too much for Yoda, he should for all intents and purposes have was, but was "unlucky" and too exhausted to regain lost ground. So he abandoned the fight. And I bet Palpatine was counting his lucky stars that he escape with his life.

P.S. So relevancy for this debate, Yoda can totally handle/pwn Vitiate.

👆 Thank you for that post, Beni.

Ah, understood and agreed with then. Though as a team I'd imagine Russell's best finals squad/performance would be a contender.

Originally posted by |King Joker|
👆 Thank you for that post, Beni.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Irrespective of what the guide says, I think if you look closely at the duel (and the script), Yoda actually appears to be superior, and a stronger Force user than at least ROTS Sidious.

I mean first off, Sidious outright tries to flee the confrontation before it even begins, and he is visibly afraid.

Yoda overpowers Sidious on several occassions, making Sidious visibly angry as opposed to his usual glee:

And according to the script, which I believe is G-Canon by the old EU rules in the portions of the duel we do not see Yoda drives Palpatine back:

PALPATINE [b]seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena.

And then pretty much defeats him in lightsaber combat:

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

Yoda has the guy beat in terms of Force powers as well:

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

Doomed people. Doomed. Palps was flat out losing.

Then Palpatine gets the high ground. Not because of superior ability, he just does:

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.

For some reason Yoda breaks off his assault and lets Palps get away. *shrug*

And then we have the final confrontation of Force abilities, in which it appears at least to me, that Yoda is quite clearly winning:

Palps intially pushes him back, but Yoda finds his resolve and Palpatine is visibly overwhelmed, just as he was in the scripted scenes we did not see. The script itself, saying the following:

YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA.

So again, irrespective of what the guide says, I think its pretty obvious the movie sought to depict Yoda as superior. And what the guide says is intepretable and generalised. It was too much for Yoda, he should for all intents and purposes have was, but was "unlucky" and too exhausted to regain lost ground. So he abandoned the fight. And I bet Palpatine was counting his lucky stars that he escape with his life.

P.S. So relevancy for this debate, Yoda can totally handle/pwn Vitiate. [/B]

Heresy on all fronts! This will be addressed l8r when I have my computer in front of me. uhuh

His entire post is completely illogical. I love this part most: "Yoda overpowers Sidious on several occassions, making Sidious visibly angry as opposed to his usual glee"

LMAO He is a sith lord of course he won't look as calm as Yoda. Sidious was also laughing and enjoying himself in other parts of the fight. Does that mean that he wasn't taking the fight seriously at those times? Perhaps that's why it was a stalemate in the first place. 😆

@ Temp, don't get mad. Sids is still sexy tbh. biscuits

Guys, some good points in favor of Yoda were made. Yet, Sidious as of RotS is backed up by numerous sources to be his equal/slight superior. Not to mention the fight in RotS indicates they are equals/near equals.

Can't we all just agree that they are near equals as of RotS.

IMHO this thread should concentrate on how far beyond Vitiate are Yoda/Sidious/Luke 😈

Also, this is Prime!Yoda in here so superior version to his RotS self.

It goes:

RotS Yoda =< RotS Sidious =< Prime!Yoda < RotJ Sidious < DE Sidious

Originally posted by Sinious
His entire post is completely illogical.

I love this part most: "Yoda overpowers Sidious on several occassions, making Sidious visibly angry as opposed to his usual glee"

LMAO He is a sith lord of course he won't look as calm as Yoda.

That said, Sidious has never showed a flicker of rage in his fight with Maul & Savage, so to claim its an intrinsic and hence meaningless aspect of his fighting style seems illogical.

Sidious was also laughing and enjoying himself in other parts of the fight. Does that mean that he wasn't taking the fight seriously at those times?

Perhaps that's why it was a stalemate in the first place. 😆

Oh, I dunno. Prime Yoda may actually be equal to ROTJ Sidious. The increase in power for being 200 years younger may be equal to what Sidious learned over 23 years of being Emperor.