Originally posted by SiniousGuess you don't respect my opinion enough to respond to it. 😬
I never said one side was clearly better or not. I said Sidious had the upper hand in the end. He pushed Yoda to his limits. It can fairly be interpreted as one side's superiority though I would respect other opinions as well as long as they're not claiming Yoda's superiority.
Originally posted by Sinious
I never said one side was clearly better or not. I said Sidious had the upper hand in the end. He pushed Yoda to his limits. It can fairly be interpreted as one side's superiority though I would respect other opinions as well as long as they're not claiming Yoda's superiority.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The reality is this...Sids tried to RUN from Yoda. If he was so powerful as Yoda points out... why run? You wouldn't.
The power of Sids lighting briefly catches Yoda by surprise and he's stunned. He then counters and Sends Sids flying. Essentially a force stalemate at that point. Sid then tries to run
Then in DIRECT saber combat used DISARMS him. There can be no mistake that Yoda proved to be his superior in sabers. So all this talk about Sids being superior is literally laughable. Yoda disarmed him, which means yoda takes the sabers department.
Then later Yoda overpowers the gravity and TK of Sids throwing a pod at him and throws it back at Sids which Sids is unable to counter.
Then as the script notes which is 100% G canon and exponentially more canon than Guides... Lucas notes.. the emperor appears doomed. Yoda buckled down and started to overpower sids lighting. This is CLEARLY seen when Yoda has the I'm getting serious look and Sids has the oh shit I'm about to get stomped look.
The reality is that we can call it a stalemate, but in no way shape or form did Sids come out superior in that fight. If anything Yoda came off as slightly superior.
BTW... Lebron handled Leonard just fine. Leonard wasn't able to stop Bron really at any point. Leonard had the better team.. he didn't out play LeBron
It can very easily be claimed that Yoda came off as superior. Even easier than the other side can. I have no issue calling it a stalemate. I do have issue says sids won
Sids tried to RUN from Yoda. If he was so powerful as Yoda points out... why run? You wouldn't.
The power of Sids lighting briefly catches Yoda by surprise and he's stunned. He then counters and Sends Sids flying. Essentially a force stalemate at that point. Sid then tries to run
Then in DIRECT saber combat used DISARMS him. There can be no mistake that Yoda proved to be his superior in sabers. So all this talk about Sids being superior is literally laughable. Yoda disarmed him, which means yoda takes the sabers department.
Then later Yoda overpowers the gravity and TK of Sids throwing a pod at him and throws it back at Sids which Sids is unable to counter.
Then as the script notes which is 100% G canon and exponentially more canon than Guides... Lucas notes.. the emperor appears doomed. Yoda buckled down and started to overpower sids lighting. This is CLEARLY seen when Yoda has the I'm getting serious look and Sids has the oh shit I'm about to get stomped look.Lightning is easier to block with lightsaber and Sidious appeared doomed because he did not have lightsaber himself at that point, temporary advantage for Yoda.
The reality is that we can call it a stalemate, but in no way shape or form did Sids come out superior in that fight. If anything Yoda came off as slightly superior.
Originally posted by Arhael
He is a coward.It didn't briefly stun him, it knocked him out cold. Sidious could have killed him right there and then but he was too confident.
Sidious dropped his lightsaber by losing balance on a small platform, it is not a direct result of Yoda's superiority and would not happen on the ground.
Those are floating platforms, throwing against gravity is not much difference in that case. You can see Sidious pulling platforms against gravity first before throwing. Yoda did not overpower Sidious. Sidious threw platform and then was too busy laughing, there was no contest.
Lightning is easier to block with lightsaber and Sidious appeared doomed because he did not have lightsaber himself at that point, temporary advantage for Yoda.
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Yoda got knocked out at beginning, that's already one loss. Then during fight Sidious carelessly abused Force by throwing many platforms, while Yoda tried to conserve energy and kept dodging. Had Yoda tried similar tactic, he would quickly burn out. Had Sidious not wasted effort on all those platforms, likely he would outright win the final contest.
There is a lot wrong with this post and some right...
He was temporarily put down, true, but promptly got up and countered Sids. He felt said power and tried to flee. I give credit to Sids for the temporary stunning of Yoda, but the reality is Yoda was too overconfident and didn't take it seriously. We later see what happens when Yoda is warm.. serious and motivated... He overpowers Sids lighting back at him. I attribute Yoda being caught at the start of the fight like a boxer coming out cold and not warming up properly
It has ZERO relevance that he made him drop his saber to keep his balance. THAT is PART oF FIGHTING. Attacking aggressively to open up a fighter and openings to exploit. This is no different than a boxer applying pressure... making another fighter switch their movement pace or footing and wind up getting caught with a punch. The aggressive movements caused the openings. Similar to a street fighter where a fighter is aggressive.. pushes back the other fighter and makes him trip on the ground and then gains mount position. That was attributed to his aggression and gaining the momentum and upper hand. There is ZERO evidence that Sids would not have been disarmed on flat ground. If you have ANY narration from the movie... book or script that says this please post it. If not, stop trying to pass your conjecture on as proof.
Again another baseless claim. You have zero proof that sids wasted to much energy throwing senate pods and thus couldn't respond later during the lighting battle like he could have. I could play this game all day and claim Sids initial lighting attack hurt yoda and depleted vital energies that he could've overwhelmed Sids earlier had that not happened. See what we can do with conjecture and speculation? That has no place here. The reality is, Sids appeared Doomed is very clear in Lucas' script.
Well to the Sidious throwing pods. He basically had the most powerful Jedi on the run with his power and then when he caught it he was laughing being overconfidemt and then when he threw it back he was still laughing and then saw it was coming and didn't have the time to use the force becuSe the moment he jumped if he would have spent even a second more he would have been hit with the pod. However the two are meant to be equals as they represent the embodiments of the light and dark side. If it came down to it and had to decide who was better at what I'd say yoda would take sabers and Sidious would take the force.
As I said earlier...the margin is 5/10. The actual movie just showed one of Sidious' 5.
Also, the outcome was limited in what it could be. They knew going in that A:Yoda had to lose, because he's EMPEROR Palpatine in the OT B:Yoda couldn't be seriously injured in the battle, because he makes it to the Original Trilogy with all his limbs.
Originally posted by Beniboybling
Guess you don't respect my opinion enough to respond to it. 😬
Originally posted by Beniboybling
I assume you plan on supporting that when you have the time.
Sorry for the delay.
If I didn't know any better, I'd say your cherry picking. But anyway I feel the point has eluded you, namely that Yoda visibly comes out of top in both of those blade locks, demonstrating his superior strength, hence why Sidious' glee quickly turns to rage, not as evidenced by it.
Yoda's calm and mature. Sidious is a cautious coward and an egomaniac at the same time. His responses will naturally vary more than Yoda.
How did you figure that about the saber locks? In the first one, Sidious comfortably pulls his saber back and restrike using only his wrist like he is playing around. He doesn't "visibly" have any trouble there. In the second saber lock, Sidious struck him and Yoda countered. That constantly happens during duels. They're minor interchanges of saber strikes that don't really mean what you claim. It doesn't in anyway hint superiority for one side.
However, I would like you to explain to me why Yoda's environmental advantage is being ignored. Yoda was on a higher ground than he would've been on open field. Perhaps that advantage let him disarm Sidious? What do you think?
That said, Sidious has never showed a flicker of rage in his fight with Maul & Savage, so to claim its an intrinsic and hence meaningless aspect of his fighting style seems illogical.Only when he believed he had the upper hand, which for the record was twice, and in both instances it quickly gave way to fear or anger when he realised he was wrong.So a duel were an opponent is disarmed and overpowered is a stalemate? Mmkay.
Sidious most likely underestimated Yoda and didn't kill him when he had the chance(after knocking him out with lightning). And the force push made him rethink about what he is doing. Perhaps for a moment he thought its not worth risking his life there since he already won the bigger fight. Nothing in that scene proves Yoda's superiority just that Yoda was more dangerous than Sidious assumed(maybe).
Again, Yoda came to Sidious. He was the assassin that was there to kill the Emperor. If Yoda is truly more powerful, why did he fail to dominate the force fight and force Sidious to defend himself instead of letting him throw senate pods at him? Once he couldn't run any longer, he stopped and resent the pod back while Sidious was looking down at his enemy's attempt with a cocky manner and laughed it off by dodging it. Perhaps if he were less cocky, he would send just another pod at him while Yoda took his time to stop the pod, start spinning it and then send it back. Btw, that's the second time Sidious had a major opportunity to finish Yoda.
Sidious' TK was more frustrating for Yoda than Yoda's was for Sidious. And the lightning exchange was a stalemate. I'm admitting this even though Sidious got the best of that lightning lock, acknowledging the minor environment effect. 👆
However, you have no real argument other than that one line in the script which could've meant a lot of things. Perhaps Sidious never came this close to the threat of death(not counting the events in Plagueis novel cause he was technically capable of easily neutralizing the threat there) and so the strong word "doomed" was used. The hype built around Sidious in that fight is more specific, clear and is supported by the ultimate outcome of the fight.
Originally posted by SiniousCautious coward? Cautious perhaps but when has Sidious ever been shown to be cowardly? And what does that have to do with him getting angry?
Yoda's calm and mature. Sidious is a cautious coward and an egomaniac at the same time. His responses will naturally vary more than Yoda.
Fact is Sidious was pissed, and that's not normal, so there must have been a reason. Sure Sith are more quick to anger but they don't do so without reason.
How did you figure that about the saber locks? In the first one, Sidious comfortably pulls his saber back and restrike using only his wrist like he is playing around. He doesn't "visibly" have any trouble there. In the second saber lock, Sidious struck him and Yoda countered. That constantly happens during duels. They're minor interchanges of saber strikes that don't really mean what you claim. It doesn't in anyway hint superiority for one side.I'd advise that you look at it again:
Sidious doesn't break off of his own volition, instead it's quite clear from Yoda's expression and movement that Yoda gathers the strength to throw off Sidious' attempt to overpower him (and indeed we have no basis for saying Sidious "comfortably pulls his saber back" when Sidious isn't even in the picture, only his blade.) Sidious then switches from glee to rage mode (read frustration) and presumably attempts to hit him with a harder attack, as the first just failed.
In the second saber lock their sabers locked, it was not just another clash, a saber lock is when two blades come together in a proverbial arm wrestle as they attempt to overpower one another. It is quite clear from Sidious' strained expression that that is what he is trying to do, and he is having difficulty with Yoda's strength.
To be specific, Sidious thrusts his blade down, Yoda thrusts up to counter him. And yet look again at the scene.
Notice that despite Sidious striking down, his arms (by looking at his shoulder) appears to be moving upward, because Yoda is pushing his downward strike back. And again he throws it off, because Yoda is stronger. Simply put Sidious repeatedly attempts to dominate Yoda, and fails.
However, I would like you to explain to me why Yoda's environmental advantage is being ignored. Yoda was on a higher ground than he would've been on open field. Perhaps that advantage let him disarm Sidious? What do you think?You mean Yoda's inherent size disadvantage is being negated. Higher ground for Yoda is normal height for everyone else, if anything it was a more fair playing field.
Sidious most likely underestimated Yoda and didn't kill him when he had the chance(after knocking him out with lightning). And the force push made him rethink about what he is doing. Perhaps for a moment he thought its not worth risking his life there since he already won the bigger fight. Nothing in that scene proves Yoda's superiority just that Yoda was more dangerous than Sidious assumed(maybe).Maybe, but consider the following:
First Sidious' defining weakness is his overconfidence. Overconfidence. He has an inflated view of his own abilities, and yet still he tried to flee. If Sidious and Yoda were equally matched or Yoda was weaker, Sidious' arrogance would lead him to think he was better, Yoda would have to be legitimately stronger for him to second guess himself. Remembering that as Palpatine he's had plenty of time to assess Yoda's powers for this arguably inevitable confrontation.
Secondly in the words of Dooku "You lack a vital quality found in all Sith. Sith have no fear, and I sense much fear in you." For Sidious to be afraid is not only uncharacteristic for him, but of the nature of the Sith itself. A Sith would not flee, unless he really believed he would lose.
If Yoda is truly more powerful, why did he fail to dominate the force fight and force Sidious to defend himself instead of letting him throw senate pods at him? Once he couldn't run any longer, he stopped and resent the pod back while Sidious was looking down at his enemy's attempt with a cocky manner and laughed it off by dodging it. Perhaps if he were less cocky, he would send just another pod at him while Yoda took his time to stop the pod, start spinning it and then send it back. Btw, that's the second time Sidious had a major opportunity to finish Yoda.He did dominate the Force fight, your not addressing the entirety of my argument, not only did Sidious have him beat in sabers, but he reflected his lightning back at him twice.
Sidious gaining the high ground had nothing to do with his supposed superiority in the Force, which we infer from the script, and the notion that Sidious could have taken him out with the pods is pure and baseless speculation, as is the notion that Sidious could have sent the spinning pod back at Yoda. Fact is he didn't, he abandoned the high ground and allowed Yoda to close the gap.
In that respect the Senate pod barrage failed, and was another win for Yoda.
Sidious' TK was more frustrating for Yoda than Yoda's was for Sidious.Is that really supposed to mean something? Sidious had the high ground, which made it easier to dodge and harder for Yoda to return fire.
And the lightning exchange was a stalemate. I'm admitting this even though Sidious got the best of that lightning lock, acknowledging the minor environment effect. 👆I'd ask that you prove that. The script makes it clear he overwhelmed him on both occasions, and the second occasions it's quite evident from the clips I provided.
Again, your not engaging with my argument directly, your avoiding it.
However, you have no real argument other than that one line in the script which could've meant a lot of things.If I had no real argument you'd be addressing it directly, rather than saying I have no real argument from a proverbial distance.
Perhaps Sidious never came this close to the threat of death(not counting the events in Plagueis novel cause he was technically capable of easily neutralizing the threat there) and so the strong word "doomed" was used.In the contexts of a lightsaber duel, the only way "it looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed" can be interpreted is "it looks as if the Dark Lord is going to lose and die." Which for the record is not at all the basis of my argument, but merely reaffirms that in those scenes I provided, Lucas intended for it to look as if Yoda was beating him.
The hype built around SidiousGonna stop your right there, there is nothing "specific" and "clear" about hype, trying looking at the facts instead.
Finally, though there are other things you didn't directly address, you totally overlooked this:
And according to the script, which I believe is G-Canon by the old EU rules, in the portions of the duel we do not see Yoda drives Palpatine back:In your own time, I can be patient.PALPATINE seeks refuge in the vast Senate Chamber. He gets into the Chancellor's Podium and it starts to rise up into the Arena.
And then pretty much defeats him in lightsaber combat:
YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.
Originally posted by Sinious
Sorry for the delay.Yoda's calm and mature. Sidious is a cautious coward and an egomaniac at the same time. His responses will naturally vary more than Yoda.
How did you figure that about the saber locks? In the first one, Sidious comfortably pulls his saber back and restrike using only his wrist like he is playing around. He doesn't "visibly" have any trouble there. In the second saber lock, Sidious struck him and Yoda countered. That constantly happens during duels. They're minor interchanges of saber strikes that don't really mean what you claim. It doesn't in anyway hint superiority for one side.
However, I would like you to explain to me why Yoda's environmental advantage is being ignored. Yoda was on a higher ground than he would've been on open field. Perhaps that advantage let him disarm Sidious? What do you think?
Sidious most likely underestimated Yoda and didn't kill him when he had the chance(after knocking him out with lightning). And the force push made him rethink about what he is doing. Perhaps for a moment he thought its not worth risking his life there since he already won the bigger fight. Nothing in that scene proves Yoda's superiority just that Yoda was more dangerous than Sidious assumed(maybe).
Again, Yoda came to Sidious. He was the assassin that was there to kill the Emperor. If Yoda is truly more powerful, why did he fail to dominate the force fight and force Sidious to defend himself instead of letting him throw senate pods at him? Once he couldn't run any longer, he stopped and resent the pod back while Sidious was looking down at his enemy's attempt with a cocky manner and laughed it off by dodging it. Perhaps if he were less cocky, he would send just another pod at him while Yoda took his time to stop the pod, start spinning it and then send it back. Btw, that's the second time Sidious had a major opportunity to finish Yoda.
Sidious' TK was more frustrating for Yoda than Yoda's was for Sidious. And the lightning exchange was a stalemate. I'm admitting this even though Sidious got the best of that lightning lock, acknowledging the minor environment effect. 👆
However, you have no real argument other than that one line in the script which could've meant a lot of things. Perhaps Sidious never came this close to the threat of death(not counting the events in Plagueis novel cause he was technically capable of easily neutralizing the threat there) and so the strong word "doomed" was used. The hype built around Sidious in that fight is more specific, clear and is supported by the ultimate outcome of the fight.
The "one line in the script" you call it, is EXPONENTIALLY more proof than what you have on your side.. which is... Oh Sids looked like he was superior. That is about as low on the proof scale as you can get. Lucas flat out states Yoda had the advantage there plain and simple. No amount of nah or sids apologizing can change that fact. Yoda came out superior in more ways than the opposite
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
The "one line in the script" you call it, is EXPONENTIALLY more proof than what you have on your side.. which is... Oh Sids looked like he was superior. That is about as low on the proof scale as you can get. Lucas flat out states Yoda had the advantage there plain and simple. No amount of nah or sids apologizing can change that fact. Yoda came out superior in more ways than the opposite
You know where he says the Emperor appears doomed... and how that coincides with the Emperor "oh sh1t" expression compared to Yoda's "Grit and determination" look. Regardless of how much you think the line means or proves. Lucas saying that.. and then us seeing that is exponentially more proof yoda had the advantage there than the opposite.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You know where he says the Emperor appears doomed... and how that coincides with the Emperor "oh sh1t" expression compared to Yoda's "Grit and determination" look. Regardless of how much you think the line means or proves. Lucas saying that.. and then us seeing that is exponentially more proof yoda had the advantage there than the opposite.
You do understand that he could be addressing the scene as a whole. Lucas I don't think when he makes these commentaries he isn't trying to end debates he describes the scenes, costumes, locations etc. Actually if yoda were more powerful he would have pushed it all the way back to palaptine. Instead it stayed in between the two showing they are equals. Lucas saying that, how does him saying someone appears doomed, how does that prove anything. Sidious didn't seem lost when he disarmed yoda and almost had him as fish fry.
Really per the lightsaber duel, the terrain was against Sidious, as his speed was not being used the way he would want, as per strength, Sidious has overcome opponents with strength that are stronger than yoda. Savage and maul for instance. Also in the force department Sidious has much better showings. Anything in the movies yoda has done, Sidious has one better.
1. Yoda vs Dooku all of the TK moves. Sidious has successfully lifted 4-6 pods with his own mind
2. Yoda basically force slams to guards against the walls. Sidious has successfully choked toe mandalorian guards without a line of vision, with no hand gestures.
3. Force pushing Sidious. He shocked yoda
4. The lightning duel. Stalemate
5. Throwing a senate pod back at Sidious. He threw several t yoda and he didn't catch any until the last one.
6. Lifting an x-wing. Sidious could duplicate that ten fold without the need to concentrate. Picking up several senate pods at once.
So I would say Sidious might have the force advantage of the two. These are just movie feats but if you can find clone wars feats for yoda then then post.
Also on neutral ground before they got into the chancellors podium, Sidious was able to go toe to toe with yoda and then when they were in an environment against Sidious he was still able to go toe to toe with yoda even when yoda had the advantage.
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Your point? That isn't what we are discussing here. You and others claimed Sids came out on top of the force battle.. and more specifically the lighting battle. That is what we are discussing here. Ya know, the part where Yoda comes out superior and the film and Lucas agree.
First I agree with you they are equal. If one is superior to the other it's very slightly. The force battle was a stalemate. Sidious shocked yoda then yoda force pushed him. Sidious had yoda on the run with his senate pods but then he was able to push a pod back. The lightning duel was a stalemate so I'd say they are pretty even. So falling off a pod from hundreds of feat in the air is coming out superior in your opinion. Lucas doesn't agree the line you say describes the scene as a whole. He doesn't say yoda or Sidous is better than the other if that were the case we can't have this debate. So no Lucas doesn't agree he has no comment.