Ziost Vitiate vs. the Daughter

Originally posted by Emperordmb
He was the guy put in charge of continuity among sources. I'm pretty sure his statements outweigh your opinion.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
TCW is still applicable to the legends continuity as well.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
confirmed by The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

Originally posted by Emperordmb
None as powerful as Talzin.

Vitiate would make Talzin his b****.

Originally posted by Emperordmb
She's certainly aware of his Force Storms. Plus, Luke said Abeloth used the force with greater power than he ever did, and Luke has achieved oneness twice and wielded his and Leia's power to vanquish DE Sidious with a wall of light.

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
If they can break the fabric of the universe, they can beat spirit!Vitiate. 👆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Contradicted by FOTJ series.

I thought newer sources took precedent...?

Originally posted by Selenial
I thought newer sources took precedent...?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What does this means?

Did I miss something? Where it is stated in the FOTJ series that Celestials > Vitiate?

How is the Daughter going to fight a formless Vitiate? Care to elaborate?

It is stated in SWTOR that formless Vitiate cannot be restrained or destroyed by conventional methods/means.

She is The Daughter. I doubt anything vitiate has would threaten her. He may be powerful, but she was able to stalemate the Son someone greater than vitiate, so solid form or not, vitiate is going down and hey here's something you should be familiar with is that her abilities are above any others with the exception of the other ones and Abeloth so she should be able to mind rape vitiate.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
In one source, it is stated that The Ones migrated to the Mortis because they could harm the galaxy. In another source, it is stated that The Ones migrated to Mortis due to Abeloth. This is a contradiction.

In that quote from FOTJ you provided? Seriously? You think your interpretation of some murals trumps or even begins to contradict a canon statement? 🙄

That excerpt from FOTJ doesn't contradict anything. It depicts the Ones abandoning Mortis as a result of Abeloth's actions, and stranding her there. But that is all that can be inferred. It is a leap in logic and assumption on your part to believe this was the reason they came to Mortis. These are two separate events which you are assuming are connected, but that assumption contradicts canon, so take it elsewhere please.

The Father may have come to know about Anakin Skywalker from the visions he experienced.

We don't know that the Father knew about Vitiate. You are speculating. Sensing great disturbance in the Force doesn't necessarily leads to identification of the event and/or its source.

It is apparent from showings of Abeloth that that statement is hyperbolic. Abeloth did not harm the galaxy with her powers and she is known to subdue both The Son and The Daughter combined in a confrontation.

Abeloth was imprisoned by the Ones to protect the rest of the galaxy, and the Ones only left Mortis to repress her when she escaped. In time we can't say what Abeloth could have done to the galaxy, because she was killed.

Good! This proves that The Ones do not control the Force and do not have greater influence over it in comparison to all others.

My understanding is that the Force is a cosmic energy field. Vitiate destroyed this energy field around Nathema and possibly Ziost.

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/beniboybling/blog/understanding-the-nature-of-force-ghosts-sith-spir/105225/

TL;DR The Force is comprised of two parts, living Force energy and cosmic Force energy. The living Force sustains all living things, as the name suggests. The cosmic Force gives cohesion to matter, and governs time and space.

Last time I checked the matter on Ziost and Nathema remained intact, space and time still flow. Vitiate didn't harm the cosmic Force in any way.

Satele Shan, Nejaa Halcyon, and Shaak Ti demonstrated the capability to block a lightsaber with bare hands. Nejaa Halcyon was able to perform this feat without struggling:

I sucked the energy out of the Anzati's lightsaber and forced myself to smile as I did so.

Taken from I, Jedi

In addition, Teneb Kel demonstrated the capability to pull lightsaber/weapons from the hands of the wielder and deactivate them without much effort.

Try again.

1. We do not know whether the Wall of Light would be effective against Vitiate or not.
2. If the Daughter could destroy the dark side with Wall of Light, should could have eliminated The Son.
3. We don't know if the Daughter have knowledge of this technique or not.

The Son was evidently too powerful, and is more powerful than Vitiate.

Did you miss the part that she is an embodiment of the light? What reason do we have to believe she hasn't mastered this power?

The Son didn't kill the Jedi with his mere presence. Obi-Wan Kenobi tolerated even a blast of Force Lightning from The Son.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
FOTJ Apocalypse came out in March while SWTVG Updated and Expanded came out in April, so I doubt that the author of the latter source had the time to read this novel and make amendments in his book in such a short span. SWTVG doesn't covers Abeloth.

Bearing in mind that TCW, which established that fact, was released prior to FOTJ, and FOTJ was made in the context of it. Hence why there is no contradiction.

More to the point, I'm not even convinced Vitiate can take Luke, let alone Daughter.

Luke may or may not need Oneness to pull it off, but he certainly can. Because ultimately, the Dark just plain is not stronger then the Light.

By word of Ep 5 Yoda.

Originally posted by Nephthys
Stigma is much more of a troll than Legend. Like it or not, Legend is sincere in his stances.

Originally posted by Nephthys
I agree that it doesn't make you a troll. Your thinly veiled and open antagonism is what makes you a troll.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What is the purpose of this thread? The thread starter didn't participate in the debate, he just sowed the seeds of discord.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
He doesn't responds to queries pertaining to power of Vitiate. Why would I take him seriously? His opinion is not the law.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Contradicted by FOTJ series.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Based on?

Vitiate would make Talzin his b****.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Abeloth is more powerful then Luke Skywalker, I don't disagree with this. However, my point of contention is that Tahiri Veila likely felt overwhelmed from her experiences with Abeloth. I am sure that she wouldn't enjoy experiencing a Force Storm either.

So are you disregarding Tahiri's statements about Abeloth and Sidious, both of whom she is clearly aware of, yet you are also considering Marr's statement about Vitiate being the most powerful being in the Galaxy to mean Vitiate>The Ones, even though Marr doesn't know jack shit about the Ones?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What does this means?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Did I miss something? Where it is stated in the FOTJ series that Celestials > Vitiate?

It's kind of sad how easy it is to trigger some of you. And Stigma is no troll. LeGenD isn't either, but that really doesn't make Stigma more of one. The fact that someone mocks you doesn't make you a troll.

Anyway, as to actually answer the topic, the Daughter. And it isn't even close.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The Ones are Celestials.

It had been theorized by Jedi and Sith alike that balance between the light and dark sides was actually under the guidance of a group of discorporate entities—the ones called the Celestials, perhaps—who had merged themselves with the Force thousands of generations earlier, and had continued to guide the fate of the galaxy ever since. In effect, a higher order of intermediaries, whose powers were beyond the understanding of mortal beings. But many Sith viewed the notion with disdain, for the theoretical existence of such a group had little bearing on the goal of making the Force subservient to the will of an enlightened elite. Only the Sith understood that sentient life was on the verge of a transformative leap; that through the manipulation of midi-chlorians—or the overthrow of the Forceful group that supervised them—the divide between organic life and the Force could be bridged, and death could be erased from the continuum.

Taken from [B]Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

---

The Ones facilitated in construction of Centerpoint Station [/B]

No, they're not. The Killiks hypothesized in FotJ that the Ones might have been evolved forms of Celestials, but that's all. Your quote refers to Celestials, which, as I said, does not mean they refer to the Ones. You highlighted "ones" in the text, except the "o" is in lower case - ie. it's just referencing ordinary Celestials, not the Ones.

The Killiks had a hive mind that gave them intimate knowledge of the ones, however. What they hypothesize is likely correct...

They're also unable to distinguish between fact and fiction, though I do agree what they say is likely to be correct.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
She is The Daughter. I doubt anything vitiate has would threaten her.

Abeloth, a being of similar nature, wasn't immune to Force powers. As an example, Force Drain powers proved to be useful in weakening and eventually neutralizing her avatar.

Originally posted by EmperorSidious2
He may be powerful, but she was able to stalemate the Son someone greater than vitiate, so solid form or not, vitiate is going down and hey here's something you should be familiar with is that her abilities are above any others with the exception of the other ones and Abeloth so she should be able to mind rape vitiate.

I am not convinced that the Son is stronger then Vitiate. I have seen nothing from the Son to imply as such. Statements or not, the Son is untested in external environments and his on-screen depictions don't match his hype.

The Son canonically personifies the Dark Side, and the Daughter canonically personifies the Light Side. That's clearly above Vitiate.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
And where exactly is that stated?

In that quote from FOTJ you provided? Seriously? You think your interpretation of some murals trumps or even begins to contradict a canon statement? 🙄

That excerpt from FOTJ doesn't contradict anything. It depicts the Ones abandoning Mortis as a result of Abeloth's actions, and stranding her there. But that is all that can be inferred. It is a leap in logic and assumption on your part to believe this was the reason they came to Mortis. These are two separate events which you are assuming are connected, but that assumption contradicts canon, so take it elsewhere please.

If they were so powerful that they could destroy the galaxy with their powers, why didn't they destroy Abeloth?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
I don't remember the Father having any visions...

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Speculating? No. I'm validating the Father's claim. The Father claims that he and his children can wield the Force like no other, not nobody he's ever met, no other. This suggests awareness of Force users in outside galaxy and all and any powerful inhabitants in it. The Father has the means to acquire this knowledge, we therefore have no reason to doubt his claim.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Oh so it's hyperbole now? What next I wonder? I fail to see what could be considered hyperbolic about "tear the very fabric of our universe", seems pretty literal to me.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Abeloth was imprisoned by the Ones to protect the rest of the galaxy, and the Ones only left Mortis to repress her when she escaped. In time we can't say what Abeloth could have done to the galaxy, because she was killed.

Now the cat is the bag.

Vitiate would also have harmed the galaxy in time. This is what Darth Marr asserted.

The Ones threatened the galaxy because they fought each other too much. They could harm the galaxy with their eternal struggles of dominance. In time is the key word.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Nobody said they could control the Force, but it is evident their influence on it surpasses others, Sidious' influence on the Force does not dispute this.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Your understanding is incorrect and misinformed, check out the intro to my blog:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/beniboybling/blog/understanding-the-nature-of-force-ghosts-sith-spir/105225/

TL;DR The Force is comprised of two parts, living Force energy and cosmic Force energy. The living Force sustains all living things, as the name suggests. The cosmic Force gives cohesion to matter, and governs time and space.

The Force is a vast, unknowable energy that surrounds and binds all living things in the galaxy.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

The aforementioned revelation means that the Force is a cosmic energy that is spread across the Universe. Life is connected to the Force by virtue of Midi-chlorians, this is its living aspect.

Now:

He felt the first hints of what was waiting for him when the shuttle dropped out of hyperspace. Through the windows of the cockpit he saw a gray-and-brown planet looming large before them. Gazing at it, he felt something strange and unsettling. Something unnatural.

It took him several moments to realize what was wrong, and even when he did, he didn’t fully grasp the implications. He wasn’t feeling the Force.

The sensation was completely alien. The Force was omnipresent. It radiated stronger in certain places and at certain times, and the balance of the dark side and the light constantly shifted. But it was always there in some way, shape, or form.

Now, however, he felt nothing. He had become so accustomed to the presence of the Force in the background that its complete absence was almost overwhelming, leaving him unable to speak.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

As pointed out to you earlier, the Force is a cosmic energy field which spans the entire Universe. This energy field have been ripped apart around Nathema.

The matter have nothing to do with the Force.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Last time I checked the matter on Ziost and Nathema remained intact, space and time still flow. Vitiate didn't harm the cosmic Force in any way.

You are confused and you are confusing others about this matter.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Deflecting a lightsaber with your hands is not the same as disable it with a wave of one's hand. Nor is sucking out its energy. And many if not most lightsabers have a pressure grip which causes the lightsaber to be deactivated if grip on it lost. So that is not the same either.

Try again.

Look at the feat of the Father:

The Father touched the lightsaber and then deactivated it.

However, Nejaa Halcyon not just touched the lightsaber but also consumed its energy, eliminating it. This is more impressive then the Father's feat.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
It worked on the spirit of Exar Kun, and various other dark side phenemoma, it eradicates the dark side, so what reason do we have to believe it won't work? Some baseless assumptions perhaps?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Son was evidently too powerful, and is more powerful than Vitiate.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Did you miss the part that she is an embodiment of the light? What reason do we have to believe she hasn't mastered this power?

Your confused. Ant was rightly implying that Vitiate would immediately realise his gross inferiority to the Daughter and promptly flee/commit suicide, giving the Daughter the win.

Originally posted by SunRazer
The Son canonically personifies the Dark Side, and the Daughter canonically personifies the Light Side. That's clearly above Vitiate.

FOR ALL:

Abeloth may have harmed the galaxy in time.

Vitiate would have harmed the galaxy in time. This is what Darth Marr asserted.

The Ones may have harmed the galaxy in time due to their eternal struggles of dominance amongst themselves.

In time is the key word.

Try to comprehend.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
By the same token, Yoda personified the Light Side and Sidious personified the Dark Side. This makes no difference and this is not an argument.

What? It's not hyperbole, we have multiple quotes stating the Daughter is the very incarnation of the light side itself, hence why her death tips the galaxy towards the dark side.

Originally posted by SunRazer
What? It's not hyperbole, we have multiple quotes stating the Daughter is the very incarnation of the light side itself, hence why her death tips the galaxy towards the dark side.

And that revelation is false. The Force had been out of balance prior to the events of Mortis depicted during the Clone Wars.

Yoda: Blind we are, of creation of this clone army we could not see.

Mace Windu: I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.

Yoda: Only a Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

Taken from Star Wars: Attack of the Clones