Thanos vs Supermans

Originally posted by h1a8
Avengers vs. Jl is not allowed. But I do understand your point. I'll point out your flaws though.

1. writer's opinions on a character are meaningless SINCE there is more than one writer of a character AND writers have differences of opinion. Also feats trump a writer's opinions.

2. Superman one shot Thor. That's how much that particular writer thinks Superman is physically superior to Thor.

3. Characters have high and low showings and sometimes don't fight to the best of their abilities in a comic. So Just because two characters in a comic fight nearly even doesn't mean they will in a forum. It's possible that one character was being downplayed in order to create a decent fight. For example, Superman has shown multi planetary strength several times over.

Superman did not one shot Thor, they had an exchange before Thor was ever kayoed.

Anyone that has trouble with Orion is not taking out Thanos. Superman is not going to defeat Thanos. Maybe 3 of them would, but one on one goes to Thanos.

Originally posted by Stoic
Superman did not one shot Thor, they had an exchange before Thor was ever kayoed.

Anyone that has trouble with Orion is not taking out Thanos. Superman is not going to defeat Thanos. Maybe 3 of them would, but one on one goes to Thanos.

Originally posted by tkitna

Where do you think feats come from? Writers.

So you want to ignore the feats that you keep harping on. Cool. If you don't ignore them, you only use the high end feats for your argument and screw how a character is portrayed on an average.

Not every feat come from a writer. I'm referring to feats outside a single writer. If a character has shown capability of doing something multiple times and yet a single writer has a difference of opinion then feats take precedent.

How a character is portrayed on average is not using low showings. That's called low balling. Low showings aren't average showings. If a character is shown not fighting to the best of their ability AS SHOWN BEFORE then why would they fight like that in a forum?

How do we apply Full Capacity if we can't? Your basically saying that it is impossible to apply full capacity because it contradicts averages. Tell me what does full capacity even mean to you.

Originally posted by h1a8
The exchange was after Thor fully recovered. So the count starts over. It's like if a boxer knock someone down (or hits someone with a good shot) and enough time passes where they regain complete consciousness, then everything starts over.

The fight between them did not stop even once, they continued to exchange blows until Thor was kayoed. What are you talking about? Besides if what you say is true (which it isn't) Superman also had time to recover. There was no one shot, so just accept it and move on.

Originally posted by Stoic
The fight between them did not stop even once, they continued to exchange blows until Thor was kayoed. What are you talking about? Besides if what you say is true (which it isn't) Superman also had time to recover. There was no one shot, so just accept it and move on.

Originally posted by h1a8
what are you talking about? The fight stopped when Superman got hit back. Thor had fully recovered when he charged Superman. Superman palmed the swing (like Thor was a child) and one shot Thor from his ass. You can downplay it all you want, but the writer believed that Superman is physically superior. And that's the whole point. Why nitpick?

Superman heat vision Thor the entire way while Thor was charging him and looking at Thor words, the heat vision was hurting him. Get the story right.

Originally posted by carver9
Superman heat vision Thor the entire way while Thor was charging him and looking at Thor words, the heat vision was hurting him. Get the story right.

Exactly.

Originally posted by h1a8
what are you talking about? The fight stopped when Superman got hit back. Thor had fully recovered when he charged Superman. Superman palmed the swing (like Thor was a child) and one shot Thor from his ass. You can downplay it all you want, but the writer believed that Superman is physically superior. And that's the whole point. Why nitpick?

I'm not low balling. You on the other hand are forgetting crucial details that went on. I believe that Superman is physically superior to Thor, and Superman did not make Thor look like a child, he simply outperformed him. This however is not enough to take down Thanos. Thanos has far more than one gear, and it goes well beyond 11.

The easiest way to measure them is to see how Starling portrays both of them.

Starling has a high regard of Superman.

But then again writters have different opinions on characters and just because one writer portrays x character perfirming certain way vs another it is not a golden rule. Every writer has his own take on the characters he is writing.

Imo since starling has a pretty good showings for Superman. Iy would not take more than one superman to win sometimes. 2 superman will be enough to defeat Thanos

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
The easiest way to measure them is to see how Starling portrays both of them.

Starling has a high regard of Superman.

But then again writters have different opinions on characters and just because one writer portrays x character perfirming certain way vs another it is not a golden rule. Every writer has his own take on the characters he is writing.

Imo since starling has a pretty good showings for Superman. Iy would not take more than one superman to win sometimes. 2 superman will be enough to defeat Thanos

Hardcore station gave us a pretty decent idea of how Starlin views Superman. Thanos is beyond his level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_Station

Originally posted by Stoic
Hardcore station gave us a pretty decent idea of how Starlin views Superman. Thanos is beyond his level.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardcore_Station

Yeah, like that is the only story Starling wrote with Superman on it.

What about the type of attacks Superman was enduring when the source was fighting soul fire darkseid? Or superman affecting soul fire darkseid's body?

Also SynnarII gave me the impression that he will beat the crap out of Thanos if Starling wrote the comic. Have not seen Thanos pulling a fight like Synnar did vs Superman, WW, MMH and Orion. Is there any on that level?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman shrunk everybody.

facepalm

Originally posted by Rao Kal El
Yeah, like that is the only story Starling wrote with Superman on it.

What about the type of attacks Superman was enduring when the source was fighting soul fire darkseid? Or superman affecting soul fire darkseid's body?

Also SynnarII gave me the impression that he will beat the crap out of Thanos if Starling wrote the comic. Have not seen Thanos pulling a fight like Synnar did vs Superman, WW, MMH and Orion. Is there any on that level?

Not in Starlins run. Starlin is limited in his scope, and ability to script/write loads of characters at once, and has a signature of keeping his stories very tight. Synnar was probably at or on Thanos' level when Thanos goes into his energy form. The problem with Synnar of Hardcore Station, is that he had a very limited run with Starlin, while Thanos has other showings albeit by other writers. Marvel portrays Thanos at the same level as Synnar was portrayed. After all he defeated Lord Mar-Vell, and the Cancerverse Avengers alone, and they had a Cosmic Cube aiding them.

We have been given very solid evidence as to where Thanos sits in terms of tier leveling. It's below guys like Odin, Tyrant but above guys like the Surfer, Thor... etc. Tyrant, and Odin on the other hand are capable to nearly fighting Galactus evenly, so.... 😬

Tyrant is not capable of fighting Galactus evenly without draining him in battle.
Odin is not capable of fighting Galactus evenly as well.
We know this by both their performance against celestials.

Originally posted by h1a8
Tyrant is not capable of fighting Galactus evenly without draining him in battle.
Odin is not capable of fighting Galactus evenly as well.
We know this by both their performance against celestials.

Tyrant is, and did fight Galactus evenly. Galactus even ate a planet and said that he had rarely felt as good as he did up to that point. Tyrant was portrayed as being a near Galactus level being. Based on feats, Odin is capable of nearly fighting Galactus evenly as well. Thanos was able to knock Galactus miles from where he hit him which shows us just how powerful Thanos is. On top of it, Thanos wasn't even in his energy form when he fought Odin, Tyrant, or hit Galactus. There's also no way that Superman would stand there unaffected if Namor punched him in the face with enough force to shatter the bones in his hand. Regardless of what many people think, Namor is a very strong character, and always has been.

You want people to stop low balling Superman, while you attempt to deny the feats that Thanos has achieved. Let's not mention how Trans level characters have swatted Superman, and left him nearly ready to black out. Let's not forget about how Superman can not ignore a punch from Aquaman, or Wonder Woman. Superman is the deal, but Thanos is simply above Superman. The Celestials are different. Don't bring up things like that. Thor would beat the Surfer, but lose to Superman, but the Surfer would murder Superman, while Superman would defeat Thor. You know that things aren't as simple as what you are saying.

Originally posted by Stoic
Tyrant is, and did fight Galactus evenly. Galactus even ate a planet and said that he had rarely felt as good as he did up to that point. Tyrant was portrayed as being a near Galactus level being. Based on feats, Odin is capable of nearly fighting Galactus evenly as well.

Thanos was able to knock Galactus miles from where he hit him which shows us just how powerful Thanos is. On top of it, Thanos wasn't even in his energy form when he fought Odin, Tyrant, or hit Galactus.

There's also no way that Superman would stand there unaffected if Namor punched him in the face with enough force to shatter the bones in his hand. Regardless of what many people think, Namor is a very strong character, and always has been.

If you swap in the Superman that exerts over 50 earth weights of force and tank black holes then Namor wouldn't do anything to Superman. There's a vast difference between aircraft carrier strength and planetary strength.

You want people to stop low balling Superman, while you attempt to deny the feats that Thanos has achieved. Let's not mention how Trans level characters have swatted Superman, and left him nearly ready to black out. Let's not forget about how Superman can not ignore a punch from Aquaman, or Wonder Woman. Superman is the deal, but Thanos is simply above Superman. The Celestials are different. Don't bring up things like that. Thor would beat the Surfer, but lose to Superman, but the Surfer would murder Superman, while Superman would defeat Thor. You know that things aren't as simple as what you are saying.

And Thor can never beat Surfer. If Surfer can beat Superman without using red radiation then why can't he beat Thor? The only way Thor wins is if Surfer is written without any reflexes and speed whatsoever. Just look at their last fight. Why would Surfer not be able to react to an incoming Mjolnir? He should see it coming towards him in slow motion.

Originally posted by h1a8
Did you read the arc? Tyrant was a child to Galactus until he started draining him. The tryant that fought Galactus evenly was full powered tyrant (after he drained). it was a cheapshot. Thor did worst with his cheapshot against Galactus. You know that Thanos is so far beneath Galactus cause he didn't try to fight him but cower under his strongest shields. Based on feats no Odin isn't. He was an insect to Celestials. Galactus has fought them evenly. If you go solely on feats and disregard who beat who then clearly Superman is above Thanos by feats alone.

If you swap in the Superman that exerts over 50 earth weights of force and tank black holes then Namor wouldn't do anything to Superman. There's a vast difference between aircraft carrier strength and planetary strength. huh, I never once lowballed Thanos. I use his highest feats as the standard. If 100 different times high Heralds were shown affecting him with blunt force and only one time it was shown that Thanos no sold a blunt attack then I'll choose the no sold attack over the 100 other different attacks. But the problem is that Thanos never no sold a high Heralds blunt attack and ALWAYS was shown to be affected by them.

And Thor can never beat Surfer. If Surfer can beat Superman without using red radiation then why can't he beat Thor? The only way Thor wins is if Surfer is written without any reflexes and speed whatsoever. Just look at their last fight. Why would Surfer not be able to react to an incoming Mjolnir? He should see it coming towards him in slow motion.

It's pretty dangerous on the comeback.

Originally posted by ODG
It was obvious. Just not well thought out if you actually consider the characters in full. An explanation follows: So Thor's history of using Mjolnir's out-of-left field plot device powers and things like Belt of Strength make it unfair to compare against Superman's history. Superman's history. Superman.

The character who conveniently learns T-Vo to exploit a loophole of Dominus', randomly supervibrates phantom planets, bizarrely sings a supernote to nullify Darkseid's spirit, spontaneously emits a solarflare to defeat Ulysses, wields Phantom Zone projectors, sundips into the Sun, hops into evolving hyperstory thought robots, utilizes random Kryptonian plot device inventions, etc.

I mean, are we forgetting he spent like.. a year developing new superpowers by the minute when he went all electric nitebrite Superman Blue?

There are memes dedicated to Superman's plot deviceness. I suspect you forgot to take that into consideration. But it has been a part of his character for a very long time:
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/02/04/supermans-15-weirdest-superpowers

Superman as of the last 20-25 years didn't bust out anywhere near the amount of plot device powers as he used to. Thor always carries around a plot device hammer that allows him to fight way outside his weight class.

The "plot device" powers you mentioned are usually 1 time things for Superman. Thor busts out various esoterics all the time with his. So yeah, it's not really comparable. Nobody ever said Superman hasn't shown a plot device power, but Thor *carries around a plot device* with him everywhere he goes. I mean seriously, you try to compare it to T-Vo? The thing that was used like..once, maybe twice..in 2-3 decades? Compared to the amount of times Thor has used his hammer for things other then physically striking people?

Not only that, but Thor lacks any sort of weakness to magic, Superman doesn't. Thor doesn't just fight magical beings, but it's a thing he does more then Superman. So yeah, just all in all going "Superman can beat anyone Thor can" doesn't make sense.

Either way this is moot, this isn't about Thor, who managed to do all of give Thanos a bloody nose even though he had the power gem. He's not the best person to use as a reason why Superman wins. The fact is Superman isn't putting down someone who can survive the shit Thanos does..before Thanos uses telepathy or transmutation. Hell he could teleport Superman to another galaxy with a point of his finger.

I can't answer how many Supermen it will take to win, but I can say you'd need more then 1. If you want to find a version of Superman who can defeat Thanos 1 on 1 then look to Kal Kent or PC Superman.

Not only is ODG right in the post you quoted.
But his plot devicey-ness goes much deeper than that.
As the universe's embodiment of Hope, he is the living plot device.

As such.

1 Superman can win, if he wills it so.

That's the thing about Superman.
In his universe, he beats all the guys the likes you have been discussing.
He beats the Tyrants, and Thanos' and Galactus' and Odin's in DC comics.
Any Superman fan can give a laundry list of demons and gods and galactic to universal level enemies Superman has beaten one way or another.

Yes. He loses way below this level at times to, but that's because he adjusts his power up and down consciously and unconsciously.
This is what the build up to Infinite Crisis, The event itself, and then 52 through Up Up and Away was all about. [Powering up to lead the way through Crisis. Then being a regular human after. Then summoning his power again as soon as he wanted it.]

It's also what Our Worlds at War build up and event and aftermath was about.

It's very literally written into those both of those stories.
The entire backbone of them in fact.
The backbone of most Superman stories.

Superman's power on an average day varies a lot because he's adjusting himself based on his encounters, and can be surprised.

But when he pushes himself, he blows the doors off.

More evidence is in the tussle with Black Adam. He started off by saying he doesn't have to hold back, and likened the blows to 'small bombs', and then started escalating himself more and more to the point his punches 'would have cracked the moon in half' when he chose to end it.
He was finding the level he needed to be at, no more or less.
And he does this on much larger scales.

And the only real catalyst to these ramps in power?
Choice.
Mood.
Himself.
[The story?]

This fluctuating difference in scope of power in a given story is why debating for or against Superman can be frustrating to those who aren't particularly built for it.

It's nigh-impossible to build an average out of this character, he is almost quite literally at whatever tier he chooses to be.
It's not even a case of 'high end feats', as he does this stuff year in and year out, issue to issue.