The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith.
-Dark Side sourcebook
The alchemy developed by Sorzus Syn is being perfected on Byss, where my Dark Side Adepts join their potent skills to warp life on a broad scale.
-Darth Sidious, Book of the Sith
Force storm: A tornado of energy created by great disturbances in the Force. Dark Side Adepts demonstrated limited control over the creation of these storms.
-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
Oh shit no way! I thought for sure that random adepts were for realz > Sozus Syn, one of the greatest Sith of all time.
What an upset.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
No, just Sorzus which I don't see why you guys find it such a big deal. She was the one who wrote down her experiments and so on, which was passed down and learned from. Sooo....why you guys are acting like this is some huge thing, it's really not. They just took her findings and used them, they were already written down, so they weren't doing anything new and had help with notes.
Joking aside, just because they have access to the same information as her doesn't mean they have a fraction of the power or talent that she does. They obviously do not and would get instantly evaporated in a fight with her. Az wasn't arguing that they knew the same stuff as her, he was saying that they were superior to her as a Force Wielder. Which is absolutely pants on head retarded.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh shit no way! I thought for sure that random adepts were for realz > Sozus Syn, one of the greatest Sith of all time.What an upset.
Joking aside, just because they have access to the same information as her doesn't mean they have a fraction of the power or talent that she does. They obviously do not and would get instantly evaporated in a fight with her. Az wasn't arguing that they knew the same stuff as her, he was saying that they were superior to her as a Force Wielder. Which is absolutely pants on head retarded.
Except the quote outright states they were perfecting her work 😂
Your denial is amusing.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh shit no way! I thought for sure that random adepts were for realz > Sozus Syn, one of the greatest Sith of all time.What an upset.
Joking aside, just because they have access to the same information as her doesn't mean they have a fraction of the power or talent that she does. They obviously do not and would get instantly evaporated in a fight with her. Az wasn't arguing that they knew the same stuff as her, he was saying that they were superior to her as a Force Wielder. Which is absolutely pants on head retarded.
Originally posted by Nephthys
Oh shit no way! I thought for sure that random adepts were for realz > Sozus Syn, one of the greatest Sith of all time.What an upset.
Joking aside, just because they have access to the same information as her doesn't mean they have a fraction of the power or talent that she does. They obviously do not and would get instantly evaporated in a fight with her. Az wasn't arguing that they knew the same stuff as her, he was saying that they were superior to her as a Force Wielder. Which is absolutely pants on head retarded.
Well it's a good thing, they use the knowledge and combine what they know together along with their power, not singular. Which given what they can do and what knowledge they have, it's not outlandish to think they can't pull something off in a collective manner.
Originally posted by Azronger
Except the quote outright states they were perfecting her work 😂Your denial is amusing.
Sure
and as a group they may very well succeed (like Zenwolf is framing it)
Thing is though, especially with implicit context provided by the Force Storm text?
They're too weak to go it alone
Or, you know, Sidious' peak achievement of conjuring his own Force Storm isn't much of a feat anymore *shrugs*
Originally posted by ChaosTheory123
Sureand as a group they may very well succeed (like Zenwolf is framing it)
Thing is though, especially with implicit context provided by the Force Storm text?
They're too weak to go it alone
Or, you know, Sidious' peak achievement of conjuring his own Force Storm isn't much of a feat anymore *shrugs*
Well it's described as they only having limited control over them, I'd wager they can't pull off destructive feats to the scale of Sidious' Storms, but perhaps something more of a localized thing. Maybe a building or something to that effect.
Of course we don't really know any Adepts using these Storms, but that seems a reasonable gauge.
Originally posted by Zenwolf
Well it's described as they only having limited control over them, I'd wager they can't pull off destructive feats to the scale of Sidious' Storms, but perhaps something more of a localized thing. Maybe a building or something to that effect.Of course we don't really know any Adepts using these Storms, but that seems a reasonable gauge.
There's not enough information to really do more than speculate *shrugs*
When that happens, I generally go with the low end assumption
The whole "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" kind of shit
Oh look. The Paragon of Ridiculous Interpretations has graced KMC SWVS again with one of his extraordinary displays of stupidity. Didn’t people tell you, that you shouldn’t bite off more than you can chew, kid?
If there ever was a black mark against the Sheevites, it was this thread. Time to fix that.
Yeah. Leave the attempt to people who have the mental faculties to do so.
Relatively worthless hype for Kun, and it does not imply equality – perhaps rough parity, but not equality – with bladesmen like Windu and Dooku.Dooku was considered the greatest student of Grandmaster Yoda himself, a 900-year-old Jedi Master:
"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!" His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away. "Our greatest student!" Yoda's ears flexed, then drooped. "Our greatest failure."
-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.
-Yoda: Dark Rendezvous
One should obviously realize that 900 years is a greater length of time than 600 years, making Dooku a better swordsman that Kun. He not only became the best student Yoda ever had, but by reaching this position, he had become the third best duelist in all of history:
Yoda taught many pupils throughout his years, including Dooku, who became one of the finest sword masters the Order ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself.
-The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection 48
History, that includes Exar Kun himself. And of course, as can be observed from the quote, Dooku’s skills were surpassed by Mace Windu.
The comment regarding Exar Kun’s lightsaber abilities was given about Padawan Kun. To spell that out for you: Padawan Kun is already better with a lightsaber than all other beings that Vodo has trained in six centuries. This is before he turns to the Dark Side (which does amplify people’s combat skills), before he designs his own weapon and comes up with a style to wield it, which would have made him an even more formidable swordsman.
And, because of the same reason, the last quote can’t be extended to Kun, because the Order didn’t “produce” him as a sword master.
Mace Windu, who was incapable of defeating Sidious in a lightsaber duel without external factors amplifying him and/or Sidious throwing the fight:There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
-Revenge of the Sith novelization
In fact, there is even evidence of Sidious holding back, indicating even greater raw skill than Mace Windu:
In the above picture, Sidious is pointing his blade at Windu’s chest for several seconds, but does not take the killing blow. One might argue this is simply because of the choreography, but I’d need Nick Gillard’s word to buy that. Otherwise, I’m going with what I see on-screen.
Gosh.
First: This is all based on a wrong (at least unproven) premise (Mace > Kun), meaning it doesn’t make sense to start with. But you’re making even more mistakes here. Mace’s Shatterpoint ability, which leads to Sidious losing his blade, is not an external factor, but a natural gift. And Sidious wasn’t holding back, which has been demonstrated countless times. The RotS commentary makes that rather clear. And even the picture you posted is utter tosh. While Sidious hold his blade out in Windu’s direction, he can’t deliver a killing blow, because Windu is moving backwards and Sidious is already extending his reach. Mace > Sidious as a swordsman. It’s that easy.
With all this, how does Kun hope to defeat Sidious with an accolade that doesn’t even cover the PT Jedi, to whom Sidious has proven himself to be a greater swordsman, at least in terms of raw skill?
One must love your attempt to simplify my entire reasoning to a very small part of the argument. Kun doesn’t beat Sidious because he is a greater swordsman. He beats him, because he is an unpredictable swordsman (weapon and style), wearing lightsaber resistant armor and being much more focused on lightsaber combat and combat related applications of the Force than Sidious is.
More worthless hype. It’s only Corran’s imited viewpoint, and quite limited indeed, if he’s so easily impressed by simple Force concealment powers. I’m fairly certain that if Horn were to witness what Darth Sidious has accomplished with his cloaking abilities – like masking your Force sensitivity from the entire Jedi Council for decades while simultaneously suppressing their Force connection - he’d make the same claim for Sidious.Even a lowly Dark Jedi, Xanatos could mask his presence from the entire Jedi Temple, as detailed in Jedi Apprentice: The Captive Temple. Corran is far too easily impressed by abilities even Dark Jedi can perform, so his thoughts cannot be used as evidence when it comes to judging Kun’s power level.
This argument would make sense, if Corran’s quote was just reffering to Kun’s force masking powers, which it isn’t. The first quote I posted is a general statement and Horn’s view is not that limited, provided he has seen post-Dark Empire Luke in combat, and still finds Kun's spirit more impressive. A sentiment, that is, rather clearly, shared by Luke, who puts Kun above Sidious as a threat.
Statements like this are handed out to people all the time. Again, worthless.
You mean: People like Sidious? Seriously. Dismissing quotes as „worthless“ based on nothing is a great tactic. Unfortunatelly, when applied thoroughly, you don’t have anything to debate here.
“Most dangerous” could have many connotations with it, and not just refer to combat ability. And how do you even quantify how “dangerous” a person is, in regards to combat, anyway? I don’t see how that would be an indicator of superiority to Sidious.
Yes. It could. But then: Which exactly? One must take into consideration, that Kun is compared to several other Sith on this page (and the opposing page) including Sidious. He, obviously, doesn’t have the military or political power to be as dangerous as Sidious is, which means the quote must point to something more on a personal level.
And the “most powerful” part has indeed been retconned several times by characters like Vitiate, Plagueis, and Sidious.
Excuse me, Sir. I still fail to see the “retcon”, just because you think that other characters are more powerful than Kun. I’ve debunked all quotes regarding Sidious doing so from the “Legends canon”, while those from the Disney canon are not applicable, because they don’t acknowledge Kun as part of the canon any longer. The only thing that speaks for Plagueis being more powerful than Kun is Plagueis himself – which is not only debateable because of the source for that thought, but also because of the fact that Plagueis had previously marked the feats of Vitiate and Kun as “legend” and “myth”.
Ashing a Sithspawn is certainly more impressive than turning a human into a skeleton.
Yeah. If one is ignoring the context of that particular scan. Which would be that, you know, the entire comic was and still is completely non-canon (as in: it was never part of the established continuity of the SW universe). And then there is the fact that Sidious did summon that creature from a crystal seconds earlier, which means that it probably wasn’t even real. And, of course, the fact that Sidious was just conducting a ritual amplifying his power is also left out of the equation.
And what has Oss Willum done, to have his opinion have any weight whatsoever? All he seems to be is just another random Jedi like Corran Horn, easily impressed by Padawan-level stuff.
I love people who, apparently, didn’t even care to read the source-material. At that point, Oss Willum had, just for example, deflected starship canon fire with his bare hands. So I somehow had the idea that he was no pushover. Yet, he pretty much considers himself rather worthless compared to Kun in the force power department.
Now this is impressive. However, I don’t see how this puts Kun above Sidious, since the latter lived far later. Sidious, however, has numerous quotes labeling him the most powerful Sith Lord in history and dark side Force user in general. But we all know how you feel about those, don’t we?
Well. At this point, I could pull the regular logical stunts utilized by the Sheevites here, and happily proclaim that Kun is a more powerful embodiment of the Dark Side than the Star Forge, all Dark Side nexus in the Galaxy, Vitiate, Abeloth and the Son, all being around at that time – even though not mentioned in the canon (aka being invented yet).
Or I could use the assclownery you call literature interpretation and attempted to me in the other debate we had lately. Something like that: “If Kun is the darkest power in the Galaxy, that means that he is more powerful than the Dark Side himself. He transcends the Force!” Does that nonsense sound familiar? Good.
And, yes, I don’t belive in those kind of quotes. My opposition here, however, does. Which was the reason for bringing them up anyway.
Well, the Jedi were certainly fully aware of Exar Kun’s power, and knew what it would take to bring him down. We cannot say the same for Sidious, though, since the Jedi had no idea what to expect from him.
Yeah. The Jedi were, somehow, oblivious to the possible extend of Sidious’ power. It’s not as if they knew that it was enough to apparently unbalance the Force, influence their abilities to use it and so forth. And, obviously, they were also quite aware of the combat skill of the apprentices Sidious had trained (Maul, Dooku).
The strike team that was sent after Darth Bane also consisted of fourteen Jedi in total, ten more than was sent after Sidious. Yet as I’ve already proven, Sidious is canonically more powerful than Bane (see the quote above). How many Jedi were sent after an individual does not reflect their personal power in the Force or their ability in combat. This is not sufficient proof of Exar Kun’s superiority.
I wonder how fourteen people compare to the entire freaking Jedi Order. Seriously. Even when alarmed by Anakin, Windu could possibly assembled a far greater team of Jedi in order to bring Sidious in. He simply didn’t consider him a thread beyond the skill of himself and his fellow Jedi. And, gosh, seeing how his duel with Sidious ended he was perfectly correct, aside from the fact, that he didn’t suspect Sidious would actually dare to attack him and his companions.
You do realize that the very quite you posted states Sidious also had all of Naga Sadow’s knowledge, right? Aren’t you supposed to argue what advantages Kun has over Sidious, and not just list every random accolade and piece of trivia that ultimately proves nothing?
You do realize, that the very quote states nothing of the kind, because, you know, the knowledge of Sadow that Sidious had access to was limited to the Holocron discovered by Nadd, which didn’t hold any of the knowledge Sadow came up with in the centuries he had on Yavin 4. And Nadd himself did take much of his knowledge to the grave. Hence, the quote that you did post in the picture later, but, apparently, chose to ignore:
“The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun; it’s extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin 4 or elsewhere.”
Which is, kind of logical, given how the Jedi scorched rather huge parts of the planet with their Wall of Light attack on Kun that, essentially, incinerated the entire surface of Yavin 4. Furthermore this is proven directly by the fact, that Sidious had to rely on clones. When coming to Yavin 4 with Kun, Freedom Nadd demands that Kun should use Sadow’s knowledge to create a new body for him.Knowing Sadow’s knowledge, that implies Sadow would have been capable of doing that – Sidious wasn’t, so he had to rely on imperfect clones.
And which abilities are those? Force Lightning? Dark side tendrils? The former is absolutely useless given that Sidious has tanked stronger blasts than- Well, Kun doesn’t seem to have any feats with that, so yeah, it’s definitely useless.Dark side tendrils I doubt are of much use either, since Sidious most likely knows a defence against it, which I’ll elaborate on later.
When has Sidious ever been hit by Force Lightning? The only instance in which it does hit him, is when it bounces back from the blade of Mace Windu and melts his face. That’s it. And you’re again arguing in circles, by assuming that Sidious lightning (“he has tanked stronger blasts”) is stronger than Exar Kun’s in order to prove that Sidious is more powerful than Exar. Laughable.
Sure, the power of a Dark Lord of the Sith is obviously going to surpass that of a Padawan-tier character by a mile. Against another Dark Lord of the Sith- Nay, the Dark Lord of the Sith, I doubt he’d impress anyone except the audience. Meaning no one.
That „Padawan-tier character“ has been identified by Luke as a Force user with a potential on par with or even superior to his own. It’s the same character that later brings Luke down with powers taught to him by Exar Kun. Who, at that point, still sees himself as inferior to the spirit of the Dark Lord.
I call it a lucky shot. Odan-Urr was not prepared for a counter-attack, so he didn’t have his Force shields raised. This is supported by the fact that Kun was incapable of penetrating the defenses of Ood Bnar, a less powerful Jedi than Odan-Urr:
Seriously, kid. Did you even read the comics or the stuff you quote yourself.
Ood Bnar did tap into the Force energy of the planet directly to generated that barrier. A barrier, that was powerful enough to make him survive a direct hit by a supernova and ensured that he was still alive and well four-thousand years later when Luke came to Ossus in the Dark Empire story-arc. It’s not as if he was doing that based on his own force abilities or something.
And, sure, as a Jedi, and one that has confronted Sith in direct combat before, Odan-Urr would not have his “force shield” up before attacking a powerful Dark Side user. Because Jedi, nowadays, give offense priority over defense. Who would have thought? 🙄
Even though it does not prove Sedriss is Kun’s superior in itself since he was amplified by the darkness in the atmosphere, it does suggest some sort of parity between the two darksiders. This becomes relevant when we consider Sidious’ thoughts on Sedriss:
Lmao. Seriously, pal. This is a 4000 year old Ood Bnar, who has tanked a supernova blast before. And he can’t do anything but kill Sedriss while giving up his life in the process. Unless you want to tell me, that Sedriss can hit harder than a supernova, it’s pretty obvious that Ood Bnar was much weaker then, than he was directly after drawing energy from the planet, which was his last resort against Kun. Sedriss doesn’t even remotely compare to Kun. Neither do Maul and Dooku (which is the basis for the other part of your argument there). Laughable.
Two beings in the same league as Kun. I see no reason why he couldn’t manhandle Kun the same way. If anyone is getting Odan-Urr’d here, it’s Exar Kun. The latter also wouldn’t be able to harm Sidious, unless the latter was caught off-guard. I guess Exar Kun could succeed in killing Sidious this way, but again, the chances of that happening aren’t very high. Sidious would shrug off Kun’s attacks if he had a proper Force barrier active.
Still operating under the false premise that Dooku and Maul are anywhere comparable to Kun. They are not. Even if you want to assume that they are in terms of lightsaber skill, which is an argument that can be made (though I wouldn’t buy it), Kun totally outranks them in terms of force mastery, knowledge and abilities. It’s not even close.
I don’t see how this changes anything. If Exar Kun’s living incarnation isn’t able to harm Sidious, then neither is his weakened spirit.
Are we back to arguing in circles again? You can’t assume that a living Kun can’t harm Sidious in order to prove that he can’t. This is, essentially, what you are doing.
There’s no reason to assume the quote claiming Kun couldn’t penetrate Ood’s Force barriers would be limited to Telekinesis. All of Kun’s Force powers and lightsaber were incapable of penetrating Ood’s defences, and thus, they aren’t going to harm Sidious either.
Yeah. Ignoring context is such a nice thing to do. Ood Bnar had a force defense rooted inside of the planet Ossus himself, powerful enough to tank a supernova, as demonstrated in the comics. Nobody would penetrate that Force defense with any kind of ability or weapon.
And since you apparently conceded Sidious’ superiority in Drain powers, what prevents him from draining Kun to death?
I did? Where?
I’d say that performing an ad hoc ritual that drains the entire Massassi population of the planet, as Kun conducted, when the entire Jedi Order showed up on his door, could be considered a little more impressive then, what, slowly draining a little bit of the life force of the population of Byss?
That would appear to be a combination of Cryokinesis and Dark side tendrils. The latter he already can resist, and as for the former, he knows Pyrokinesis to counter:
Since you don’t even have come close to establishing that Sidious can resist Dark Side tendrils and have a mere assumption to go by, this section of your little answer is entirely worthless. Thanks for trying.
Again, the tendrils aren’t going to do anything. As for the spirit-ripping, Sidious – unlike Luke – knows spirit-related techniques that he studied from holocrons:
Again, you have failed to provide any evidence for the tendrils not working. And for the the spirit ripping: That Sidious dealt with spirits doesn’t mean he has any kind of defense against that. Thanks for wasting your time…
So he pull the spirits of the ancient Sith from the netherworld of the Force for extra power, a practise he apparently used in his duel against Yoda:When those blades met, it was more than Yoda against Palpatine, more the millennia of Sith against the legions of Jedi; this was the expression of the fundamental conflict of the universe itself.
-Revenge of the Sith novelization
Just quoting this because of the sheer hilarity and the obvious demonstration of your utter reading incompetence. So you take that wording and assume, that Sidious summoned all Sith spirits to aid him. I take it then, that Yoda, according to your “interpretation” susmmoned “legions of Jedi” to the battle, right?
Obviously, that is a metaphor for those two being the culmination of the teachings of their respective orders, rather that what you think.
He also seemed to pull this off during a ritual in Sithisis:
Still absolute non-canon. Why not bring some fan-fiction to the debate? Would make almost as much sense as this…
But this is really beside the point. As with all of Kun’s other abilities, they could not penetrate Bnar’s Force shields, so neither are they penetrating Sidious’.
Again. I have to point out the hilarity of this line of thought
Ood Bnar, capable of resisting supernova blast > Kun
Ood Bnar, far weaker than that = Sedriss
Sidious > Sedriss
Therefore: Sidious > Sedriss = Kun
That is such a giant leap into a black hole in which no logical reasoning, literature interpretation skill and reading comprehension has ever been found, that I’d like to declare you unfit for any kind of debate here. Seriously. Just delete your account, leave the internet, go back to school.
I wonder how Kun could put Sidious in stasis, since the latter possesses enormous willpower – far surpassing that of Kun’s – which is noted to be a key component in resisting certain Force powers:
I wonder where this has ever been my point. Adding strawman argument to the list of logical fallacies you’ve commited so far. The point was that Kun can use Sith magic rather fast, silently and on a rather large target crowd, meaning he would likely be very able to do similar stuff in similar fashion to a single target.
Quality > Quantity; Sidious > Kun
Arguing in circles. Assumption is not equal to proof. D’uh.
I’ve already proven he can tank and defend against all of Kun’s attacks, and Sidious can one-shot Kun with Telekinesis or Force lightning.
You have proven nothing but just made a fool out of yourself. And Sidious can one-shot Kun? Based on what exactly? On the fact that he has done it to, well, nobody so far?
First of all, I doubt Sidious would even know such a technique, so I don’t see what use the knowledge to defend against it has here. Second, Kun did not even defend against it, since Odan-Urr did not have the time to properly employ it.
Your utter inability to read texts properly is apparently matched with your inability to transfer observations to different circumstances and your ignorance towards any kind of context.
1)
Odan-Urr, as he tells Nomi Sunrider, has brought down Ancient Sith Lords with that particular technique. You, usually, don’t have time to have a little chat with them and neither won’t they just stand there and have you do it to them.
2)
Odan-Urr attacks Kun with that technique, that has been labeled the “most devastating” lightsaber power there is and Kunjust resists it. Whether that was to natural force defense, a “force shield” or even Kun’s amulet is entirely irrelevant. It just proves that he has some sort of Force defense that is rather hard to overcome.
Since the rest of your argument there is based on your utter inability to comprehend the source material, I won’t waste my time with it.
As mentioned before, Sidous is more powerful than Aleema, so Kun’t exactly be “shrugging off” his lightning blasts.
Since the effect of Aleema’s Sith magic is still more impressive than anything Sidious has done with his lightning…
Unless there’s some evidence to suggest he could tank lightsaber hits, I don’t see how he’s going to survive something which could do this:
Do what? Are we back at the “blade bending bit” which is, utter tosh, given that there is no power required to bend energy / plasma beams?
I don’t see how Sylvar’s opinion would make it true.
I don’t see much to contradict it.
Especially considering – when it came down to serious combat – Kun only defeated a holding back Vodo due to the latter’s stamina issues:But Master Vodo-Siosk Baas stepped onto the floor: the diminutive Jedi would stand against him. Exar Kun battled his old Master, using a doublebladed lightsaber and all the Sith tricks he had learned. He tried to lure Vodo to join his Sith cause, but the Jedi Master refused. As the fight continued, Vodo grew weaker and Kun gained strength. Finally, just as Vodo vowed he would defeat Exar Kun, the Dark Lord struck with his lightsaber and killed his teacher.
-The Essential Chronology
It should also be noted that Kun tried all of his Force abilities as well – from amulet blasts to dark side tendrils – and Vodo apparently resisted it all. That’s two individuals less powerful than Yoda (and by proxy, Sidious) as per accolades Kun has failed to overpower.
Seriously, pal. Just give up.
It is pretty obvious, that Kun did never use any force powers against Vodo, even though you like to interprete “all the Sith tricks he learned” in that fashion.
And yeah. Vodo just lost because he lacked stamina. :rollyes: May I remind you, that Padawan Kun, before falling to the Dark Side, before inventing his new weapon and style, was already Vodo’s superior in combat, when their fight lastet – what – half a minute? It’s fairly obvious to anybody with a working brain that Vodo didn’t have a chance and that Kun, even while toying with his former master, completely dominated that fight.
And again, you are making assumptions in order to prove stuff you assume (here Yoda > Vodo), without any inclination to back them up.
But back to the topic of lightsaber combat, I don’t see what Vodo has going for him that would mark him as an equal or superior to the likes of Count Dooku or Mace Windu, the latter being at the mercy of Sidious’ bladework. So Kun has no advantage over Sidious in raw skill.
You mean aside from 600 years of combat training, experience which, apparently made him so good that he could “make his stick more powerful than a lightsaber”. Are we talking about that Vodo? Just asking…
And then there is the fact, that this was never a contest for Kun, no matter how much you’d like that.
Sidious is confirmed to be a master of every weapon and every style, and has experience against and with staff weapons, when he fought Savage Opress and the Kursids, so Kun wielding a saberstaff would pose no threat to him:
Lmao. Utilizing that “reasoning”, nobody can threaten Sidious with any weapon. He still manages to get disarmed by Mace and Yoda. Can it be that it is dependent on who wields that weapon? D’uh.
That aside: The unique property of Kun’s weapon is, that he can alter blade length and intensity mid-fight making his weapon utterly unpredictable, as it can, technically, even completely pass through opponents blades.
Kun also has this:
Breaking Mandalorian Iron. However, he only achieved this by bumping up the intensity of his lightsaber to its maximum. Exar Kun was incapable of breaking MI with solely his natural strength, as can be observed from the comic when he failed on his first try. This is very clearly Kun's limit, so no other strength feats from him need to be mentioned.
I can’t even tell if I want to laugh or cry here.
You happily ignore the entire argument chain regarding Kun’s strength.
Then you introduce a feat that has nothing to do with strength at all: cutting through mandalorian iron, which is solely dependent on the power of the lightsaber blade. Then you attempt to talk down Kun’s strength based on his blade failing to cut the iron. Seriously? How absolutely damn stupid are you, kid? But, of course, you must come to the conclusion that:
I hope you see where I’m going with this. Sidious would break Kun’s bones with one strike.
Sure thing, pal.
Kun was capable of matching strength and later overpowering Sylvar, who was clawing through metal with her bare hands. Then he matches Ulic, who is seen to match Qrrl Toq and three other Jedi, when Toq alone has been shown to lift four soldiers from the ground utilizing a huge piece of metal to do so – with one hand. The same Ulic who tosses a fully armored Mandalorian warrior around as if he was a feather – with one hand. I’m not sure that even Opress when in full rage mode, could match that kind of physical strength – much less the version Sidious fought later. And even if, he still wouldn’t break Kun’s bones, much like he doesn’t break any other bones.
Random Naddists aren’t comparable to the greatest Jedi of the PT times, lol. 2/3 of them have comparable showings to Ulic’s.
Oh my god. The nature of the opponents is totally not important, when arguing the speed of a particular combatant, like I did with Ulic Qel-Droma. Fact: He cuts down five people before Warb Null can even turn towards him. He cuts down at least two people, before the weapon of his previous victim is even on the way to the ground, much less hitting it.
Both Agen Kolar and Kit Fisto don’t have anything compareable to offer in terms of speed. Neither has Sidious:
You also have a very clear policy against secondary sources like novelizations when they depict things differently than the movie. So I must wonder why you would choose to quote the novel over the movie, but dismiss the below source because it contradicts the episode. Double standards, perhaps? Anyway, in the movie Sidious kills Kolar and Tiin far faster than in the novel. And this isn’t Sidious’ only demonstration of speed vastly beyond that of Kun. Another would be this:Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.
-Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy
I know you dismiss this because it somehow “contradicts” the TCW episode. But where is the contradiction? Simply because he didn’t blitz Maul in the episode doesn’t mean he couldn’t have. Even the supplementary material supports the novel version of the fight as legit:
Oh my, kid. You must be seriously dumb. I used the novel version of the RotS fight, because the choreography for that particular scene is utterly hilarious, with Sidious stabbing people almost in slow motion. Using that depiction, there wouldn’t even be an argument regarding speed. Using the novel there also is none, but at least, Sidious is depicted in a fashion that is more in line with his other displays of combat speed (e.g. against Maul / Savage).
And, yes, the novel version of the fight between Maul and Sidious does contradict the novel, in a fashion that makes pretty clear, that Sidious can’t simply “speed blitz” his former apprentice (and may I add: any longer). While TPM Maul was certainly a candidate for that, the new Maul isn’t. He does offer a legitimate challenge for Sidious, when it comes down to lightsaber combat, but is – of course – entirely helpless against the superior force abilities of his master.
Still: We were arguing speed here. And nowhere does Sidious match Qel-Droma. Which is only logical, considering that Ulic is – what – half his age (if he’s even that old) and in far better physical shape.
And in the topic of speed, let’s talk about the speed of Sidious’ Force lightning. Sidious has shown he is able to unleash lightning even a combat-ready Yoda has a hard time reacting to.
Your grasping at straws is utterly hilarious. Sidious attacks Yoda in close quarters with the ability exclusively. Had any other opponent done the same, Yoda would have had an equally hard time of defending himself against it. Because, you know, it’s different to dodge some lightsaber strike and a wide arc of lightning flying towards you. So where is your point?
Kun literally has no chance here. In saber combat, he’s outclassed in skill, strength and speed – the latter two so much Kun would literally lose after a single stroke from Sidious. In the Force, Kun has no way of harming Sidious, and the latter can literally ragdoll and one-shot him before he has any chance of getting his defences up. This will be one of the most one-sided slaughters ever.Darth Sidious stomps Exar Kun. And I mean stomps.
Cringeworthy.
You didn’t do anything but present a rather long and senseless text, that I won’t call an “argument” because it’s based on hilariously false conclusions, wrong premises, downtalking and logical stunts so extreme, that your brain should leak out of your head, ashamed for having been abused for the excerise of formulating that bullshit.
As far as authorial intent goes, Kun was designed as an equal to Sidious. I’ve demonstrated, why this is probably still an accurate description of his position. You, in turn, have just demonstrated, why your postings are a pointless waste of bandwith and cemented your position as the boards new laughing stock. A position, that I will gladly remind anybody about, should you show up with this kind of nonsense again.
Improve or get out, kid.
Originally posted by Azronger
The writers recognized their folly. But given you've no actual rebuttal, does this mean you agree that if refers to Dooku's power?
No, again, it refers to knowledge. Dooku was more learned than Anakin in RotS as well, despite being far less powerful in the Force.
Oh yes, he definitely created them. According to Sorzus, she was the first to do so, however. And I do not see evidence pointing to the fact that she was lying, other than speculation.
I'm referring to Muur having a hand in the initial creation of Leviathans.
My source is Legacy. It's not concrete, but neither is a Sith's journal.
Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. She said she was going to do it. Where's the evidence pointing to the opposite?
The fact that the Muur and Dreypa Talismans were intact millennia after their creation, despite this supposed Syn Talisman having no historical basis or even being heard of? After all, the Muur Talisman was causing galactic-scale crises and disturbances, and yet a far more powerful Talisman has no mention in history whatsoever? The only basis for such a Talisman even existing is her wishful thinking, which isn't supported by anything else.
There's also the fact that other sources declare Muur as the creator of the Muur Talisman, rather than Syn.
And yes, Muur has tricks Sorzus doesn't; I'm not arguing she's a better combatant than Muur, just more powerful and knowledgeable, and an overall greater master of the Force.
None of that is supported by BoS. She's literally just recording what she's discovered and making a few personal remarks along the way.
And from where do you draw the connection between Wyyrlok and Sorzus? Just because something is the case with one character, does not mean it is the case with another, especially when the two aren't connected in any way.
There's no line. Being more knowledgeable than someone doesn't amount to being better than them at combat or more powerful overall, whatsoever. And I can draw lots of examples for that. Dooku vs Anakin, Krayt vs Wyyrlok, Thanaton vs Nox, Baras vs Wrath, etc.
The only demonstrations of Sorzus' Force powers are her Alchemy and Sorcery, with which she seemed to be ahead of everyone else.
In no way does that make her stronger than Muur overall. Wyyrlok and Maladi were better than Krayt at this stuff, but they didn't compare in terms of actual combat.
The only character who she's been confirmed weaker to is Ajunta Pall. No such statement exists regarding Muur. I'm basing my conclusion on what information we have available, even if it isn't much. The only reason to assume Muur is better at casting sparks or lifting big stuff is... well, nothing.
There's no need to compare Muur to Syn in Lightning or TK given that we've got absolutely nothing to go off for her in those areas.
We do know that they're about the same in terms of power, and that's where we should leave it.
Well, apparently they had enough power to drain part of a planetary population and create Force Storms (the same ones the Emperor uses, only on a smaller scale). Canonically, only the most powerful Sith Lords in history could use Sith Alchemy, yet their mastery of it outstripped some of its most powerful practicioners. This canonically puts the Adepts among the most powerful dark side users that have ever existed.
Their mastery outstripping somebody else's doesn't make them more powerful. Force mastery and Force power are two totally distinct things.
The Adepts had to combine their powers to operate any of the stuff you're talking about, by the way. Not a valid comparison whatsoever.
Palpatine just has higher standards than most for who is worthy of studying at his feet. I don't think you realize how well it reflects on Palpatine's own power and the power of those who he did consider worthy. "Moderate" isn't the same for him as it is to others.
Palpatine seemed to consider the likes of Malgus worthy of candidature, but I'll drop the point since it's not very relevant.
Vader can think whatever he wants. Especially at this point when the Dark Side Adepts hadn't been formed (at least I don't think), and when Vader himself wasn't that powerful. And probably had never seen what his Master was capable of.
Vader's a first-hand witness to Palpatine bending Mace's lightsaber with Lightning, and he knew at the end of RotS that his power wasn't enough to even touch Palpatine's, so yes, I do think he's got a decent handle on how powerful the Emperor was.
Palpatine did have Dark Side Adepts serving under him at this point, as well.
Sidious considered her one of his most powerful predecessors. Yet that does mean she herself would qualify for apprenticeship. The two aren't contradictory. As I said, it only reflects on Sidious' own power, and just how much the Sith have evolved across the millenia.
In any event, there's no established relationship between the power levels of Muur and the Dark Side Adepts, nor what Palpatine would've thought of Muur. On the other hand, Vader, who's well aware of how powerful Palpatine was, considered Muur's power to be potentially enough to allow him to overthrow Palpatine and even take Palpatine's place as his master. And I don't believe he'd think of any of the Dark Side Adepts in that light.