Originally posted by AncientPower
The idea of Nai conceding to you, is beyond laughable. I'm not even trying to insult you, but you're on a long list of people who've tried and you'll likely join the list of failed soon after. Dare I say, it's inevitable.Nai's been doing this far longer than you have, against debaters like Silver.
This is suppose to be impressive? Anyone can do it, all you have to do is be a biased stubborn f-uck who never concedes.
Originally posted by AncientPower
The idea of Nai conceding to you, is beyond laughable. I'm not even trying to insult you, but you're on a long list of people who've tried and you'll likely join the list of failed soon after. Dare I say, it's inevitable.Nai's been doing this far longer than you have, against debaters like Silver.
Yeah, I doubt he'll ever concede. But its worth a try, I guess.
Originally posted by SunRazer
No, again, it refers to knowledge. Dooku was more learned than Anakin in RotS as well, despite being far less powerful in the Force.
Well, yes, but it refers to the quality of the knowledge (aka power). That's what the word "lesser" implies.
I'm referring to Muur having a hand in the initial creation of Leviathans.My source is Legacy. It's not concrete, but neither is a Sith's journal.
Well, obviously Muur created them, too, but Sorzus was first. And I'd say someone who was there herself is more reliable than a historian living 7 000 years later. But that's just me.
The fact that the Muur and Dreypa Talismans were intact millennia after their creation, despite this supposed Syn Talisman having no historical basis or even being heard of? After all, the Muur Talisman was causing galactic-scale crises and disturbances, and yet a far more powerful Talisman has no mention in history whatsoever? The only basis for such a Talisman even existing is her wishful thinking, which isn't supported by anything else.
The Sword of Ajunta Pall was so powerful it "destroyed" its wielder, someone more powerful than either Muur or Sorzus, yet nobody had heard of its power before Revan recovered it from his tomb and after that it was never heard of again.
The galaxy is a big place. Some things disappear and are lost forever. That's just how it goes. If that happened to a more powerful artefact than Sorzus' talisman, there's no reason to doubt the talisman's existence.
There's also the fact that other sources declare Muur as the creator of the Muur Talisman, rather than Syn.
Which sources?
None of that is supported by BoS. She's literally just recording what she's discovered and making a few personal remarks along the way.
If you choose to believe otherwise, so be it. I'd say her being the first to create Leviathans and creating the most powerful Sith talisman are sufficient feats to mark her as second only to Pall.
There's no line. Being more knowledgeable than someone doesn't amount to being better than them at combat or more powerful overall, whatsoever. And I can draw lots of examples for that. Dooku vs Anakin, Krayt vs Wyyrlok, Thanaton vs Nox, Baras vs Wrath, etc.
I can also draw several counter-examples: Yoda vs Sidious (it was noted Yoda's knowledge made him just as powerful), Plagueis, etc. although admittedly, there're fewer (at least not many came to mind), but they still exist. But when we have no other evidence, we must turn to Sorcery and Alchemy feats, and those would imply Sorzus is the greater master of the Force than Muur.
In no way does that make her stronger than Muur overall. Wyyrlok and Maladi were better than Krayt at this stuff, but they didn't compare in terms of actual combat.
I'm not saying Sorzus is a better combatant, but a better Force wielder.
There's no need to compare Muur to Syn in Lightning or TK given that we've got absolutely nothing to go off for her in those areas.We do know that they're about the same in terms of power, and that's where we should leave it.
They're definitely in the same league - that's where we both agree. And I don't think we are going to convince each other, so as you said, we should leave it at that.
Their mastery outstripping somebody else's doesn't make them more powerful. Force mastery and Force power are two totally distinct things.
Except when in the case of Sorzus, theres nothing except Force mastery feats for her, so that's the only way to measure where she stands as a Force wielder.
The Adepts had to combine their powers to operate any of the stuff you're talking about, by the way. Not a valid comparison whatsoever.
Yeah, I'll concede the point. However, I still think they're very much comparable individually. They may have needed to join their powers to advance beyond Sorzus Syn, but she wasn't able to advance further by herself, now was she?
It's not revealed how big a portion of Byss they drained and there's no indication they needed to band together to do it. An individual could have drained anywhere from 10 to 10 000 people considering the size of the population.
And the Adepts could also create Force Storms, albeit they weren't fully able to control them. This is very impressive as the power has been labeled as the most destructive Force power known.
All in all, an individual Adept is among the most powerful dark side users in history, as per canonical sources. Easily comparable to Sorzus Syn.
Palpatine seemed to consider the likes of Malgus worthy of candidature, but I'll drop the point since it's not very relevant.
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Vader's a first-hand witness to Palpatine bending Mace's lightsaber with Lightning, and he knew at the end of RotS that his power wasn't enough to even touch Palpatine's, so yes, I do think he's got a decent handle on how powerful the Emperor was.
Vader thought he could beat Palpatine by himself in Last of the Jedi: Reckoning:
Vader was shocked at the grief and anger that roiled through him at his Master's words. He could easily have struck his Master down.
He absolutely has no idea what his Master can do, and him thinking Muur and he could beat him doesn't prove a damn thing about Muur's power, and it does not make him comparable to Palpatine in the slightest.
Palpatine did have Dark Side Adepts serving under him at this point, as well.
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In any event, there's no established relationship between the power levels of Muur and the Dark Side Adepts, nor what Palpatine would've thought of Muur. On the other hand, Vader, who's well aware of how powerful Palpatine was, considered Muur's power to be potentially enough to allow him to overthrow Palpatine and even take Palpatine's place as his master. And I don't believe he'd think of any of the Dark Side Adepts in that light.
Already addressed this.
Originally posted by AncientPower
The idea of Nai conceding to you, is beyond laughable. I'm not even trying to insult you, but you're on a long list of people who've tried and you'll likely join the list of failed soon after. Dare I say, it's inevitable.
The idea of him making any sort of informed argument is laughable.
Nai's been doing this far longer than you have, against debaters like Silver.
Erm. What? I can't remember to have debated Silver. In fact, that name only crossed my path once, when I was being compared to him in terms of debating ability. That's it.
Originally posted by AncientPower
You have any idea how far back Nai's Kun arguments go?
The ones for Kun - or the ones against him? I've fought IKC over Kun quite a bit in the hayday of SW debating here, utilizing both Yoda and Sidious for my side against Kun. Can be done. Needs smarter people than those who are currently active here, though. Maybe somebody who can use the search function. 🙄
Originally posted by AncientPower
Nah, nobody has ever formed a legitimate counter to defeat him on the Kun topic. I've witnessed almost every occasion.
There is no "legitimate" counter. Much as there is no "legitimate" argument on my side. This is Star Wars. Different authors have different takes on the same character, which leads to character designs being changed - if only for one particular storyline. The split into "Legends" and "Disney Canon" has made that kind of arguments even more complex. And in the end, on the upper tier of SW combatants, virtually anybody can kill anybody else. Either that, or it's essentially some sort of godmode through special abilities for everybody up there.
My point is not that Kun is superior to character X,Y or Z. My point is, that I find it rather laughable, that people attempt to construct some "power ranking" or "hierarchy" of SW characters in terms of direct confrontation, by utilizing even the most abstract bits of information to push their personal agenda. I just enjoy bringing those houses of cards down.
Originally posted by AncientPower
Nai's been doing this far longer than you have, against debaters like Silver.
Originally posted by Nai
Erm. What? I can't remember to have debated Silver. In fact, that name only crossed my path once, when I was being compared to him in terms of debating ability. That's it.
lmao