Exar Kun vs. Palpatine

Started by Freedon Nadd44 pages

Originally posted by MythLord
No, that's Ziggy. Nadd is... just kinda a lapdog.

I am not like the lapdog at all. Some would say, I am the reverse.

Doglap?

@Nadd

I see you still lack proper comprehension of the English language. Luke didn't say Exar Kun and Sidious were the greatest focal points of darkness, but were two of, as in they were both focal points of darkness... But who else would be that, really?

Exar Kun and Sidious are the only true Sith, bar Vader, Luke has encountered at the time. According to Heir to the Empire, he's pushed past his father being a focal point of the Dark Side and no longer believes that to be the case. So for being Dark Side focal points we have candidates like: a pre-prime Lumiya? Desann? All this really does is place Exar Kun ahead of neophytes and pre-prime Sith Lords, not compare him to Sidious.

Sidious can be number one, and Kun can be number two, but the gap between them is never detailed; all we know is Exar Kun is > Desann... not that big of an achievement.

Nadd is straight up embarrassing Wollf, lmao.

At this point, your opinions are null and void, DC.

How does Luke thinking Sheev and Kun being focal points of darkness equal Luke thinking Sidious = Exar?

At this point, your opinions are null and void, DC.

I was just playing, but since you're taking it serious: I'm sorry, but I don't think yours [responses] ever was worth anything so, lmao.

How does Luke thinking Sheev and Kun being focal points of darkness equal Luke thinking Sidious = Exar?

Don't believe I ever commented on the quote meaning Palpatine = Exar, so dunno what you're saying on about here. But you are under cutting it a bit. Joruus C'baoth was a dark sider, that Luke, considered to be "easily a Vader level threat", was still below spirit Kun, per Skywalker own opinion.

So, via Luke, a weakened Kun is superior to someone that shares close parity to Vader. It isn't something that places Kun on Sidious' level, but it's certainly better than what you're trying spin it if one takes it at face value.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
I was just playing, but since you're taking it serious: I'm sorry, but I don't think yours [responses] ever was worth anything so, lmao.

I guessed, as much. I wonder how you didn't realize I was as well, lol.
And I'm probably not even going to entertain Nadd. Users more qualified for debating than me have tried convincing him, but he keeps regurgitating the same thing over again.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Don't believe I ever commented on the quote meaning Palpatine = Exar, so dunno what you're saying on about here. But you are under cutting it a bit. Joruus C'baoth was a dark sider, that Luke, considered to be "easily a Vader level threat", was still below spirit Kun, per Skywalker own opinion.
So, via Luke, a weakened Kun is superior to someone that shares close parity to Vader. It isn't something that places Kun on Sidious' level, but it's certainly better than what you're trying spin it if one takes it at face value.

Quote for Luke thinking Joruus ~ Vader? Besides, we know canonical sources place Vader ahead of C'baoth, anyways.

And again, the quote says two of the darkest, as is they're up there, but they're not neccessarily the best.

Luke muses that Sheev and Kun are "TWO OF" the greatest dark side focal points, not "THE TWO" greatest dark side focal points.

ninjad

👆 ✅

Originally posted by MythLord
[B]@Nadd

I see you still lack proper comprehension of the English language. Luke didn't say Exar Kun and Sidious were the greatest focal points of darkness, but were two of, as in they were both focal points of darkness... But who else would be that, really?

Exar Kun and Sidious are the only true Sith, bar Vader, Luke has encountered at the time. According to Heir to the Empire, he's pushed past his father being a focal point of the Dark Side and no longer believes that to be the case. So for being Dark Side focal points we have candidates like: a pre-prime Lumiya? Desann? All this really does is place Exar Kun ahead of neophytes and pre-prime Sith Lords, not compare him to Sidious.

Sidious can be number one, and Kun can be number two, but the gap between them is never detailed; all we know is Exar Kun is > Desann... not that big of an achievement. [/B]


You did two things so far(and I am fine with that)
1. You corrected me with the dark side focal part. But Luke believes them to be "two of the greatest"
He still "re-tells" those events from his experience. And he is thinking to DE Palpatine(claimed to be at his strongest) and JA Exar Kun(at his weakest)
Hope, I made myself clear now.

2. You proved that I have problems with English. But, fortunately, I am not the only one.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
You did two things so far(and I am fine with that)
1. You corrected me with the dark side focal part. But Luke believes them to be "two of the greatest"
He still "re-tells" those events from his experience. And he is thinking to DE Palpatine(claimed to be at his strongest) and JA Exar Kun(at his weakest)
Hope, I made myself clear now.

2. You proved that I have problems with English. But, fortunately, I am not the only one.

You made yourself clear, it still doesn't change the fact that having a similar accolade doesn't mean they have similar power.

Originally posted by MythLord
You made yourself clear, it still doesn't change the fact that having a similar accolade doesn't mean they have similar power.

Okay, let me get this straight for you:
1. Exar Kun in JA(as spirit) completely demolished Luke's Jedi Praexum, and was almost to kill Luke. And Luke needed the force combined to vanquish Exar Kun's spirit. So this is the instance for Exar Kun.
2. Palpatine in DE was noted to be at his strongest form. Luke has witnessed his Force storms, knew about his Chrysalides, he dueled him. He vanquished him too with Brand's help.
While Luke "re-tells" those events from his perspective; he is thinking how it was when he faced them.
But we as fans, unlike Luke, we can draw a conclusion based on his "re-telling" about them too. Because we know these characters' past.
So, he is comparing those events in a way.
Exar Kun(JA) at weakest
Palpatine(DE) at strongest
The thing that he considers Kun as 'one of the greatest focal points of the dark side' alongside Palpatine is already enough. And I don't think that Vader or Lumiya fit this category. Nor Desann for that matter. These three characters are beneath Sidious' Force power. Only Palpatine was a living dark side nexus that Luke encountered; and Exar Kun(IIRC)
And the author doesn't make more 'focal points' with that fragment. The author simply states that Palpatine and Exar Kun are two of the greatest dark side focal points[in the galaxy] that were faced by Luke Skywalker. Not that he had faced more of them throughout his career.
And one thing:
Don't you find it odd that Timothy writes Kun(one of the greatest focal points alongside no one other than Palpatine himself)?
Why would he do that? Why? When he could simply write, "Exar Kun was one of the greatest dark side focal points that Luke had ever faced."? Unless, he had in mind to make a straight reference and comparison between the two of them(Exar Kun as spirit and Palpatine as of Dark Empire) He was pissed off at the Dark Empire plot; and disliked the idea of Palpatine returning to life once again anyway.
And basically we are already told that Kun was at his weakest in JA(performing those feats)
And Palpatine was at his strongest in DE.
So in conclusion:
Exar Kun>Palpatine(DE) and should almost effortlessly>ROTS Palpatine
Even Tom Veitch(begins to agree with that notion being a co-creator of both characters)

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Luke muses that Sheev and Kun are "TWO OF" the greatest dark side focal points, not "THE TWO" greatest dark side focal points.

ninjad

Fair, truthfully, I take Luke's opinion of all New Republic villains with a grain of salt. At that time period, every other villain could have been Sidious level threats, and the next Vader.

It seems like the writers were just trying to create suspension by comparing every run-of-the-mill dark sider to the greatest Sith Lord ever, and one of, if not, the greatest Sith apprentice.

Originally posted by Deronn_solo
Fair, truthfully, I take Luke's opinion of all New Republic villains with a grain of salt. At that time period, every other villain could have been Sidious level threats, and the next Vader.

It seems like the writers were just trying to create suspension by comparing every run-of-the-mill dark sider to the greatest Sith Lord ever, and one of, if not, the greatest Sith apprentice.


Timothy still hates DE Palpatine. And you're a Sith Lord. 🤔 🤐

Originally posted by MythLord
Sidious can be number one, and Kun can be number two, but the gap between them is never detailed

Yes.
And yet, you still think it must be significant enough to ensure, that Sidious would take every fight against Kun, when the latter enjoys the benefits of a more martial approach to both the Force and lightsaber combat, wields a unique weapon with a unique style and has lightsaber resistant armor.

Yup. Seems reasonable. 🙄

Yes, yes I do since Sidious is canonically more powerful, enjoys having substantially greater feats and has strength that sh!ts on beings who were capable of slicing through lightsaber-resistant material.

Sidious would ragdoll Kun yeah. 🙂

Originally posted by MythLord
Yes, yes I do since Sidious is canonically more powerful,

Oh. He is? Care to provide that Legends quote referring to RotS Sidious specifically? Not that it answers the initial question: How much more powerful?

enjoys having substantially greater feats

Where?

and has strength that sh!ts on beings who were capable of slicing through lightsaber-resistant material.

Erm. What?

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Sidious would ragdoll Kun yeah. 🙂

I will keep in mind, that contradiction of the authors opinion / intention on a matter (in this case the inventors of both Kun and DE Sidious) is legit for you. Because, you know, according to Tom Veitch, the inventor of DE!Sidious, Kun is probably better than (at least) Canon!Sidious (aka RotJ Sidious), while Kevin J. Anderson, the inventor of Kun, thought that Kun and DE!Sidious need to duke it out to find out who the most powerful Sith is. Just saying...

Originally posted by Nai
Oh. He is? Care to provide that Legends quote referring to RotS Sidious specifically? Not that it answers the initial question: How much more powerful?

"Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."

-- The New Essential Chronology

"His[Palpatine's] power may be unparalleled in the history of the Sith."

-- Force & Destiny

"When the most powerful Jedi battled against the most powerful Sith, the two sides of the Force clashed in spectacular style. Grand Master Yoda took on Darth Sidious in the Senate building on Coruscant and proved that strength and power have nothing to do with size."

-- Jedi Battles

These are EU sources, published far after the invention of Exar Kun. In fact, the last two are after the invention of even Vitiate, who himself is more powerful than Exar, or Plagueis, who's also more powerful Vitiate.

As to the question: by how much? Well, you can guess the gap is definitely considerable since Dark Empire Sidious is more powerful than RotJ Sidious, who's more powerful than ANH Sidious, who's more powerful than RotS Sidious, who's more powerful than TPM Sidious, who rivals Plagueis, who's at least on par with SWTOR Vitiate, who's above Exar Kun.

Originally posted by Nai
Where?

Most of the sources he's featured in.

Originally posted by Nai
Erm. What?

Several characters substantially beneath Sidious in strength managed to drive their lightsabers through lightsaber resistant material via muscle, so I'd imagine Palpatine could as well.

Myth, your choice of sources regarding Palpatine's supremacy, is the bit flawed. The Force & Destinyexcerpt says "perhaps", I.E. a possible conclusion, but not a definitive outcome. Jedi Battles could simply be referring to the now, rather than the history of the Jedi and Sith Order as a whole.