Watching Bardock and Delf debate is like watching someone who knows what the **** they are talking about to a person who has zero clue.
Delf is a respectable black man living in America and Bardock is a white German living in Europe.
From waching them debate, You can see who knows knows what going on and who is just using the ability to jammer on about nonsense.
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Originally posted by Bardock42
I would very much say it is the fault of the policy if it is tied to property values. The education of the citizens of a country should not be based on the wealth of the neighborhood, imo.That the discussion in this thread has somewhat evolved may be true, but I think my posts are close in spirit to the point the OP was trying to make. My disagreement with MF Delph was on whether there are other issues that deserve more attention, not whether there are other issues at all. From my POV the issues of authority and mainstream society that contribute to the problems in black communities are more important and I choose to focus on them more, in particular because the media actually focusses much more on the other side imo.
And I don't think "moving on" from the racist history is in any way reasonable or productive currently. If we do not acknowledge the history and continued racism we are turning a blind eye to a big part of what causes the issues.
Nothing is actually being said here, just fancy lip service. I have never seen someone be able to just type all this fancy sentences the way Bardock is without actually saying anything at all, but then you look at what is being said and its just empty rhetoric with nothing based in experiences or living in our culture.
Vs
Originally posted by MF DELPH
If the funding doesn't come from local, state, and federal tax funding where is it going to come from? As a citizen of Oakland, CA my local taxes don't cover the costs and curriculum of, say, Lubbock, TX, for example (I sure as hell wouldn't want to know I was funding what the Texas Board of Education is doing to their text books and curriculum). Certain areas in Oakland are very high crime with little to zero home ownership and essentially all of the funding for schools comes from subsidies. A city like Dublin, CA doesn't have the same issue because on top of the state and federal funding they are also getting local taxation. The shortfall is the fault of Oakland's overall local tax valuation and revenue. The only way to bring that up is to bring the property value and local revenue up.
Originally posted by MF DELPH
I think wealthy people of every ethnicity have it better than most people regardless of ethnicity, and I know some white people in poverty have it worse than me, a single middle class 35 year old black man with no kids and a career, and I know most of us here in the US have it better than people elsewhere, so it's all relative.The only 'privilege' your average lower middle class white person has (which is the vast majority of white people) is that they don't have the mental and cultural baggage my people do, and by that I mean being brought up and taught that everything here is set up to hold them back and even if you try your hardest you'll likely be passed over because you're black. One of my favorite hip hop songs of all time "Thieves in the Night" by Mos Def and Talib Kweli spoke on it. The sense of disillusionment and disenfranchisement that leads to a stigma of self defeat. A lot of people actually buy into that mentality before they even try or look to illegitimate means to make a living without giving a legitimate career a chance and lacking the patience and foresight to plan long term. I can't blame White People solely for that. I've never lived in bondage, and I've made strides in my life because I came from a household that didn't profess that mindset.
Who is talking about certain area's in America and talking specifics about issues in certain cities and using them as examples. I can also tell from Delf's post that he has very good understanding and insight as to what is going on and uses good examples from different area's of culture and current events.
Its clear Bardock is a complete joke and or trolling, and just using the word "racism" and using it often to act like he has a clue about the current issues in America.
Or St Louis...
It does appear the most dangerous thing to Blacks is other Blacks.
Notice how many came to the aid of othes....
ZERO!
Welcome to the Black Community's of the U.S
Originally posted by MF DELPH
I think wealthy people of every ethnicity have it better than most people regardless of ethnicity, and I know some white people in poverty have it worse than me, a single middle class 35 year old black man with no kids and a career, and I know most of us here in the US have it better than people elsewhere, so it's all relative.
There's a thing called intersectional privilege. That is to say, there's different types of privilege that can overlap, and apply in some cases but not others.
There's white privilege and class privilege, and one can have one, both, or neither.
A black guy is more likely to see poor treatment by police than a white person of the same class, but one with a tailored suit and a 'respectable' haircut is safer than one in casual wear- though, a wealthy black person not wearing the trappings of class is more likely to suffer prejudice.
I'm reminded of the black judge who had the police called on him for 'trying to break into his own house'. High class position, normally treated with great respect, normally his class privilege cancels out any lack of racial privilege, wear casuals in the morning and people assume he's breaking into the neighborhood.
And it does remain that regardless of class, black people are more likely to be treated as a threat by police, and police are less likely to use de-escalation tactics.
The first dozen shootings in NYC by police this year were half against white, half against black. All the white suspects were armed. 2/3rds of the black ones were unarmed.
Which is not to say the only problem is police vs the people. Rather, the lack of trust in the police exacerbates any local issues by removing the force that'd normally stop them. Police are less interested in getting involved and locals are less trustful of the police, so you see higher casualty rates from gang violence and the like. Other areas simply have better protection than black neighborhoods tend to.
If the funding doesn't come from local, state, and federal tax funding where is it going to come from?
I believe Bardock's point is it should come from state or federal, not local, because it being based on local values means that poorer neighborhoods get the shaft when they likely need more help.
Having it reliant on local funding means a poor area can be caught in a kind of death spiral. Kids get less opportunity for education to move to richer areas, stay in poorer areas by default, poorer area provides less good education, next generation's stuck too.
(Also, does anyone find T-I's attempts to dismiss everyone who disagrees with him as 'nonsense' or someone with 'zero clue' really sad? I mean, you and Bardock are having a pretty good back-and-forth, and he decides the one he doesn't agree with *obviously* has nothing to say, he can safely ignore all opinions that don't line up with his preconceptions!)
Originally posted by Flyattractor
[b]Or St Louis...It does appear the most dangerous thing to Blacks is other Blacks.
Notice how many came to the aid of othes....
ZERO!
Welcome to the Black Community's of the U.S [/B]
I wonder if that would have been racism if a white person did that?
Originally posted by Bardock42
You don't think there is white privilege?Also, from my POV I always look at this from the white community (being white) and I think the issues we have in our community that affect black people negatively are very big, but we are very willing to sweep these issues under the rug and just point at it being black people's fault alone.
You should tell us, you are white after all. I live in a predominately hispanic community and I am the minority. You like in a 90-100% white community, I think you would know better then anyone.
Originally posted by Flyattractortell us some more about how much you hate black people
[b]Or St Louis...It does appear the most dangerous thing to Blacks is other Blacks.
Notice how many came to the aid of othes....
ZERO!
Welcome to the Black Community's of the U.S [/B]
Originally posted by Q99that's one story. let me tell you another story my friend
Which is not to say the only problem is police vs the people. Rather, the lack of trust in the police exacerbates any local issues by removing the force that'd normally stop them. Police are less interested in getting involved and locals are less trustful of the police, so you see higher casualty rates from gang violence and the like. Other areas simply have better protection than black neighborhoods tend to.
like chicago for example used to have a relatively vibrant black district in the segregation era.... when desegregation happened you see a flight of upper and middle class black families from the traditional black part of chicago.. stripping the community of its economic base. then in an attempt to combat poverty they decide to build massive public housing complexes.... which, due to a general lack of other, legitimate economic opportunities in the area, deteriorate into hellish warzone of competing gangs. then, in an effort to "clean up the streets," they start destructing public housing complexes on a mass scale, one after another, displacing thousands of impoverished residents who still have little to no economic opportunities, and now the gang territories are all being shaken up as populations shift due to the destruction of the complexes. and thus you have 238 people murdered in chicago in 2015 so far and counting... usually you'll end up somewhere in the 400-500 range...
Originally posted by red g jacks
is it a valid question or is it more pointless race baiting bullshit? (hint: that's a rhetorical question)
No I mean hypothetically, like if the media had gotten ahold of this and had that been a white driver, hell say it was a hispanic driver. What would they say? I can think of the words hate crime and racist and all the other stuff
Originally posted by red g jacks
maybe? but you're like... inventing a controversy that never happened so who cares? do you just want me to say the media sucks? because the media sucks.
I agree. It just does not seem fair. If black's commit crime against each other, its largely not reported. If its Black on white, its largely not reported. If its white on black, its racism and national news.
The controversy is invented by the media and then everyone argues about it.
actually i think chinese are the majority. they're the ones you need to worry about. china operates very similarly to an ant colony... they have a "hive mind" if you will. they act on the basis of what is good for the chinese collective rather than what is good for the run of the mill chinaman.
that's why you see them beating us so much on trade. they make shit cheap because they make it in forced labor camps called the "laogai" which is an abbreviatted chinese term meaning "reform through labor."
chinamen who disagree with the regime are promptly sent to the laogai to make our homer simpson slippers and christmas lights. this is how china is so successfull and why the west is so afraid of china... because they have the power of collective swarm intelligence, similar to an ant colony.
imagine 1.3 billion statistically superior chinese brains all working in unison as a collective intelligence network to subvert american geopolitical interests and promote the interests of china and the subservient residents of the laogai. not a good forecast for the west, my friend.
First off, T.I., your not helping the discourse here man. We're just having a good convo. There's no winners/losers. Stop taking shots at Bardock. He's not the problem. Ideologically he and I are closer to allies, I just disagree with some of his positions as I find them lacking proper context.
Originally posted by Q99
There's a thing called intersectional privilege. That is to say, there's different types of privilege that can overlap, and apply in some cases but not others.There's white privilege and class privilege, and one can have one, both, or neither.
A black guy is more likely to see poor treatment by police than a white person of the same class, but one with a tailored suit and a 'respectable' haircut is safer than one in casual wear- though, a wealthy black person not wearing the trappings of class is more likely to suffer prejudice.
I'm reminded of the black judge who had the police called on him for 'trying to break into his own house'. High class position, normally treated with great respect, normally his class privilege cancels out any lack of racial privilege, wear casuals in the morning and people assume he's breaking into the neighborhood.
And it does remain that regardless of class, black people are more likely to be treated as a threat by police, and police are less likely to use de-escalation tactics.
The first dozen shootings in NYC by police this year were half against white, half against black. All the white suspects were armed. 2/3rds of the black ones were unarmed.
Which is not to say the only problem is police vs the people. Rather, the lack of trust in the police exacerbates any local issues by removing the force that'd normally stop them. Police are less interested in getting involved and locals are less trustful of the police, so you see higher casualty rates from gang violence and the like. Other areas simply have better protection than black neighborhoods tend to.
I believe Bardock's point is it should come from state or federal, not local, because it being based on local values means that poorer neighborhoods get the shaft when they likely need more help.
Having it reliant on local funding means a poor area can be caught in a kind of death spiral. Kids get less opportunity for education to move to richer areas, stay in poorer areas by default, poorer area provides less good education, next generation's stuck too.
(Also, does anyone find T-I's attempts to dismiss everyone who disagrees with him as 'nonsense' or someone with 'zero clue' really sad? I mean, you and Bardock are having a pretty good back-and-forth, and he decides the one he doesn't agree with *obviously* has nothing to say, he can safely ignore all opinions that don't line up with his preconceptions!)
What I took away from your first paragraph is that, essentially, anyone can have 'privilege' via class and wealth, but at some point that privilege can be revoked, and when it occurs to a black person it's because of their lack of white privilege and racism, but when it happens to a white person it's apparently some form of outlier and doesn't change the point that they have white privilege, which is always on, it just didn't kick in in those instances when a white middle class person or person of wealth ends up on the wrong side of the law or is a victim of some other form of circumstance, like not getting a job with thousands of dollars of student loan debt, falling victim to predatory lending practices by a bank or hedge fund manager and losing their home, and then winding up sitting in a drum circle in Central Park for Occupy. You brought up an incident where a black law professor was detained as a possible home burglary suspect trying to enter his own home (the infamous "Beer Summit" incident). Just 3 weeks ago Sean Combs, aka Puff Daddy, aka P. Diddy (take that, take that, take that), a black rap producer, beat a white man with a f*ckin' kettlebell on the UCLA campus and wasn't shot on sight. That's why I find the concept of White Privilege bullshit. I'm black and have it better than a lot of white people, and I also have peaceful interactions with law enforcement because I:
-Don't engage in criminal activity.
-Don't frequent areas which are known for criminal activity.
-Have a clean criminal record.
-Am able to communicate calmly and rationally with others, including law enforcement.
-Don't assume the worst when I engage with law enforcement so I'm on the defensive or seem nervous.
-Don't attempt to flee.
-Don't antagonize.
-Comply if necessary, but it typically never gets to that point because I'm able to prove I'm not a suspect before the possibility of things escalating and simply provide my ID/Driver's Licence without issue.
As to the second part regarding educational funding, it DOES come from state and local taxation and subsidies (things like sales tax. lottery ticket sales, special assessments, etc), and the remainder that cities like Oakland or Baltimore receive for funding comes from local taxes (School taxes, prop funds, bonds, etc.) which are levied against local residential and commercial property. Poor management at the local level (OUSD for example, where I went to school, is notorious for this. I was in high school in the '90s when the OUSD proposed the "Ebonics Education" program to ask for additional state and federal funding in order to teach instructors how to teach their curriculums using street slang, all the while embezzling school funds and having the entire organization corrupted with nepotism) is a major culprit in this. School districts have most of their appropriations go to administrative costs or put money into programs which don't directly benefit the students.
And that fine bureaucratic mess doesn't even take into account the kinds of households a lot of these students come from where education isn't made a priority, or people who just come from broken homes and neighborhoods where criminality, hustling, sex bartering, and narcotic abuse are commonplace and they've been indoctrinated into the pariah mindset at a young age. A 4th period Trigonometry teacher making $42k a year isn't going to convince a student in 50 minutes a day that making fast money as a stripper or thief/dealer and pulling 5 figures a month isn't as beneficial or lucrative as sitting in that class room figuring out parabulas with a graphing calculator. Those kind of values really have to come from the home. The onice is on the parents and the neighborhood/influences those parents are bringing their children up around. As my Pops used to tell me, "You might be in it, but you're not of it".
Originally posted by red g jacks
tbh i think white priviledge obviously does exist and im white, and grew up relatively poorit's also a buzzword that is thrown around too loosely these days though
IMO it's way more class and location. Not to say that racism doesn't permeate our society upwards in terms of class (Oprah had an anecdote about shopping and being profiled as a credit card thief and being asked to leave a store), but moreso to say that the American Crab Barrel is far more turbulent at the lower levels.