Originally posted by cdtm
Nah, it's been decided long ago on Death Battle, this is just a hundred+ pages of salty Carver. 😉
ROFL.
Deathbattle is crap.
Their bias and lack of understanding of the character is obvious.
Still, you didn't show anything that can put Superman close to Goku in any categories that matters in a fight.
Goku wins effortlessly.
Originally posted by cdtm
Well, that was the point behind Grant Morrison's Superman Beyond 4d story. The whole thing was a meta narration about a meta universe that used concepts to beat other concepts, or something.You know how Morrison gets.
👆 Reading and comprehending are two different things, at least you, Galan, Phil and others are able to understand what they read. So props to you 😉. And Namor came after Superman btw. ^^
And the guys from Death Battle did a good research and understand what they read, hence the accurate outcome of the fight. Thank good the Internet is not only full of biased DB slowpokes.
Guys, honestly, how can you be satisfied with the result of death battle 2?
Aside from Superman winning, which its always nice to see your guy win, Goku was already capable of massive destruction as an ssj3 back in the Z era. He shook the planet by screaming, and all the way into other worlds. Now, at the level he's at now, he is at a bare minimum 12 times stronger. As an ssj3 he was at most 5% of Beerus. And as an ssj red, he skyrockets to 60% or so.
Then take into consideration that he then went ssj blue, then can increase his power by a factor of up to 10 on top of that, and he STILL can't win?
Give the same amp to any marvel or DC herald. Except don't even go that extreme, someone try to argue Silver Surfer(power increased x20) vs Superman, and it sounds quite ridiculous no? Well same here, because Z era goku was a herald at the very least. Unless people think he was like a meta. Who can dust planets.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
ROFL.Deathbattle is crap.
Their bias and lack of understanding of the character is obvious.
Still, you didn't show anything that can put Superman close to Goku in any categories that matters in a fight.
Goku wins effortlessly.
it seemed they went to the very root of each character perfectly to me. even so far as illustrating the symbolism behind both characters. It just seems as though dbz just dont like the answer.
Originally posted by Damborgson
Guys, honestly, how can you be satisfied with the result of death battle 2?Aside from Superman winning, which its always nice to see your guy win, Goku was already capable of massive destruction as an ssj3 back in the Z era. He shook the planet by screaming, and all the way into other worlds. Now, at the level he's at now, he is at a bare minimum 12 times stronger. As an ssj3 he was at most 5% of Beerus. And as an ssj red, he skyrockets to 60% or so.
Then take into consideration that he then went ssj blue, then can increase his power by a factor of up to 10 on top of that, and he STILL can't win?
Give the same amp to any marvel or DC herald. Except don't even go that extreme, someone try to argue Silver Surfer(power increased x20) vs Superman, and it sounds quite ridiculous no? Well same here, because Z era goku was a herald at the very least. Unless people think he was like a meta. Who can dust planets.
Because collateral damage is not the end all and be all. Superman saved the Omniverse by vibrating, lifted infinite weight, broke through multiversal boundaries, tanked multiversal attacks. This kind of feats are not the end all. But if you want to go by the highest, take it for both. Heck even two thors slamming their Mjolnirs together had the power of the freaking big bang and caused shockwaves through the Universe. A GL was able to contain the power of the Big Bang. Yet Gokus gets laser through and no bullshit with dropping energy levels, hipocrisy, either you pack the power or you don`t arguments work both ways. Superman lowers his power constantly, this is an established fact and he has no limits if necessary. DB fans are just butthurt because they lost. But to each his own^^.
Originally posted by Damborgson
Guys, honestly, how can you be satisfied with the result of death battle 2?Aside from Superman winning, which its always nice to see your guy win, Goku was already capable of massive destruction as an ssj3 back in the Z era. He shook the planet by screaming, and all the way into other worlds. Now, at the level he's at now, he is at a bare minimum 12 times stronger. As an ssj3 he was at most 5% of Beerus. And as an ssj red, he skyrockets to 60% or so.
Then take into consideration that he then went ssj blue, then can increase his power by a factor of up to 10 on top of that, and he STILL can't win?
Give the same amp to any marvel or DC herald. Except don't even go that extreme, someone try to argue Silver Surfer(power increased x20) vs Superman, and it sounds quite ridiculous no? Well same here, because Z era goku was a herald at the very least. Unless people think he was like a meta. Who can dust planets.
By feats, Goku can actually destroy Superman easily in his very early career when he was around the 23 rnd Budokai Tournament.
The rest is just a salugtherfest.
Originally posted by yungz22
it seemed they went to the very root of each character perfectly to me. even so far as illustrating the symbolism behind both characters. It just seems as though dbz just dont like the answer.
They didn't actually.
The missed some very important points and that wasn't on purpose.
They used completely useless information like the lifting strength and the top speed when both are irrelevant to CQC situations, which will be lead by the ability to have a good positioning (footwork), striking power, quickness which Goku has a lot when Superman is a slowpoke incapable to tag a simple street-leveler like Shadowdragon, durability which Goku has a lot more than Superman considering the power of the attacks he blocks on a daily basis, energy projection where Goku completely ridiculize Superman, and skills which is another Area where Goku will laugh at Superman.
Superman walking unarmed through Goku's Kamehameha was completely retarded when he cannot handle a weak Ki-attack like this and get one-shotted.
Goku can kill Superman in one-punch or one Ki-ball.
No, I am not comparing feats. Thor, for all intention and purposes, has some pretty legit better feats than Odin. Yet he is not Odin's superior.
I'm not even power scaling and claiming that because Roshi broke the moon, Goku busts the galaxy.
I am asking, how is it logical to assume that a herald level character, gets his powers boosted 20 times over, and still looses to another character in the same category, more times than not? Answer that, no one is compating feats. By sheer logic, how is Superman still vastly superior.
I've argued Thor into a victory over Zarathos with feats, doesn't mean he's > Zarathos.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
By feats, Goku can actually destroy Superman easily in his very early career when he was around the 23 rnd Budokai Tournament.The rest is just a salugtherfest.
These statements right here are why Z fans aren't taken seriously. Dragon ball Goku would likely get a hole in his chest from Superman.
Originally posted by Damborgson
No, I am not comparing feats. Thor, for all intention and purposes, has some pretty legit better feats than Odin. Yet he is not Odin's superior.I'm not even power scaling and claiming that because Roshi broke the moon, Goku busts the galaxy.
I am asking, how is it logical to assume that a herald level character, gets his powers boosted 20 times over, and still looses to another character in the same category, more times than not? Answer that, no one is compating feats. By sheer logic, how is Superman still vastly superior.
I've argued Thor into a victory over Zarathos with feats, doesn't mean he's > Zarathos.
Simple and honest answer. The power boost in DB is falsely interpreted. The Power Level in DB is more similar to Mana in Video Games. If someone with 300 Mana attacks you with his best attack the power of it might be enough to destroy a moon, if you have 500 mana you can absorb or block it. This kind of scaling makes sense as their strength and endurance does not increase, only their ability to use their best ki attacks longer and keep up shields. Still if you strongest attack is only able to do 300 damage it doesn't matter if you multiply the mana by 20. It helps against other ki fighters, as you might keep the pressure and deplete their power reserves and win the fight but the capability does not change. Tech and Ki reserves, that's all. You can see it like this. Their Ki boosts their defense against ki attacks and allows them to use their best attacks without getting depleted. If you get attacked by ki and block with ki, you deplet your reserves. That's why having more mana is euqal to being far more powerful against Ki fighters. Sure, they boost their physical attacks with ki to deplete the opponent but if someone with far far superior strength like Superman comes, one OWAW punch might be enough to kill, or as seen his Laser Vision 😉.
Originally posted by Damborgson
These statements right here are why Z fans aren't taken seriously. Dragon ball Goku would likely get a hole in his chest from Superman.
This kind of willfull ignorance is why Superman fanboys aren't taken seriously.
Not only Superman lost to characters far weaker and slower than Goku but Superman has actually zero chance to tag Goku if he don't want it.
I doubt that he will one-shot Goku too as he was incapable to even KO in one punch characters far less durable than Goku.
I already provided the arguments that Superman is vulnerable to Ki-attacks and I showed Superman being one-shot by a weak Ki-imbued punch two posts above.
All the evidence is already here and I don't care if an unpopular opinion is dismissed through bias.
Originally posted by Prof. T.C McAbe
Simple and honest answer. The power boost in DB is falsely interpreted. The Power Level in DB is more similar to Mana in Video Games. If someone with 300 Mana attacks you with his best attack the power of it might be enough to destroy a moon, if you have 500 mana you can absorb or block it. This kind of scaling makes sense as their strength and endurance does not increase, only their ability to use their best ki attacks longer and keep up shields. Still if you strongest attack is only able to do 300 damage it doesn't matter if you multiply the mana by 20. It helps against other ki fighters, as you might keep the pressure and deplete their power reserves and win the fight but the capability does not change. Tech and Ki reserves, that's all. You can see it like this. Their Ki boosts their defense against ki attacks and allows them to use their best attacks without getting depleted. If you get attacked by ki and block with ki, you deplet your reserves. That's why having more mana is euqal to being far more powerful against Ki fighters. Sure, they boost their physical attacks with ki to deplete the opponent but if someone with far far superior strength like Superman comes, one OWAW punch might be enough to kill, or as seen his Laser Vision 😉.
While the first part of your comment is true and I think too that the way the Ki-reserves are used is similar to what you described your conclusion is false...
Sure, they boost their physical attacks with ki to deplete the opponent but if someone with far far superior strength like Superman comes, one OWAW punch might be enough to kill, or as seen his Laser Vision wink.
Do you realize that Superman is only superior in lifting strength and that his "so hyped" heat vision was incapable to one-shot opponents a lot weaker than Goku ?
Goku is clearly superior in striking power and durability.
The combat speed aren't even comparable...
Superman can't hit slightly over the top martial artists like Shadowdragon and Goku actually fight at super-speed...
Except we have very real feats for Gokus power increase. Comparing it to mana from a video game isn't the same, its not a bigger pool of resources to spend it is a straight up physical and power increase. Its closer to getting every buff in the game. Especially when Dragon Ball has very clear multipliers, Gohan wasn't outlasting Cell's key when he beat the living hell out of him and tanked his strikes.
Goku at 5% of Beerus was one shot with a tap. After his increases, he's able to take full on punches and even be impaled and make it back on his feet. It's not theoretical, he's got a very clear stats increase.
The ray gun incident shouldn't be held against Goku in the same way Thor getting hurt by a snake bite or Hulk getting g strangled by a boa isnt held against them.
Originally posted by DamborgsonA power increase of x12 wouldn't even give him the ability to destroy the sun, based on his feats as a SSJ3 or those below him. He was about on par with Kid Buu, whose biggest and baddest ki blast could "merely" destroy a small star or a Jupiter sized planet. It's in the higher levels of planet busting.
Guys, honestly, how can you be satisfied with the result of death battle 2?Aside from Superman winning, which its always nice to see your guy win, Goku was already capable of massive destruction as an ssj3 back in the Z era. He shook the planet by screaming, and all the way into other worlds. Now, at the level he's at now, he is at a bare minimum 12 times stronger. As an ssj3 he was at most 5% of Beerus. And as an ssj red, he skyrockets to 60% or so.
Then take into consideration that he then went ssj blue, then can increase his power by a factor of up to 10 on top of that, and he STILL can't win?
Give the same amp to any marvel or DC herald. Except don't even go that extreme, someone try to argue Silver Surfer(power increased x20) vs Superman, and it sounds quite ridiculous no? Well same here, because Z era goku was a herald at the very least. Unless people think he was like a meta. Who can dust planets.
This doesn't even take into account the still enormous disparity in speed and strength. The ability to blow shit up means nothing when Goku would get physically dominated.
No, before Super Superman still handily beat Goku. Only with Super did the tables turn, and in a big way, with Goku being far more powerful than Superman or even a Skyfather.
Originally posted by Damborgson
Except we have very real feats for Gokus power increase. Comparing it to mana from a video game isn't the same, its not a bigger pool of resources to spend it is a straight up physical and power increase. Its closer to getting every buff in the game. Especially when Dragon Ball has very clear multipliers, Gohan wasn't outlasting Cell's key when he beat the living hell out of him and tanked his strikes.Goku at 5% of Beerus was one shot with a tap. After his increases, he's able to take full on punches and even be impaled and make it back on his feet. It's not theoretical, he's got a very clear stats increase.
The ray gun incident shouldn't be held against Goku in the same way Thor getting hurt by a snake bite or Hulk getting g strangled by a boa isnt held against them.
It's not a contradiction. Beerus hits at 5% with strength AND ki, enough ki will lead to Goku being depleted or overpowered, simple. Same for Gohan and Cell.
Originally posted by RealityWarper
This kind of willfull ignorance is why Superman fanboys aren't taken seriously.Not only Superman lost to characters far weaker and slower than Goku but Superman has actually zero chance to tag Goku if he don't want it.
I doubt that he will one-shot Goku too as he was incapable to even KO in one punch characters far less durable than Goku.
I already provided the arguments that Superman is vulnerable to Ki-attacks and I showed Superman being one-shot by a weak Ki-imbued punch two posts above.
All the evidence is already here and I don't care if an unpopular opinion is dismissed through bias.
I am not a Superman fanboy lol. I just refuse to take part of such extreme lowballing of the opposite character.
Your arguments are basic, superman can't tag goku because he couldn't tag character x, but all someone needs to do to contradict you, is post Superman tagging character Y, who is much faster than Goku, I.e. flash, and your argument went to crap.
That's why you can't low ball, that's why Goku obviously isn't ray gun level.
So take into consideration, that maybe your argument needs some work, and look for ways to improve it.
Originally posted by NemeBro
A power increase of x12 wouldn't even give him the ability to destroy the sun, based on his feats as a SSJ3 or those below him. He was about on par with Kid Buu, whose biggest and baddest ki blast could "merely" destroy a small star or a Jupiter sized planet. It's in the higher levels of planet busting.This doesn't even take into account the still enormous disparity in speed and strength. The ability to blow shit up means nothing when Goku would get physically dominated.
No, before Super Superman still handily beat Goku. Only with Super did the tables turn, and in a big way, with Goku being far more powerful than Superman or even a Skyfather.
What is this meant to argue? I agree Superman beats Z Goku. And you agree Super Goku beats Superman. So....what's up?
And physical might does not invalidate planet busting power. Silver Surfer isn't considered an elite herald because he can mangle you with punches, but because he drop black holes on you, despite having smaller biceps than Hulk.
Originally posted by Damborgson
I don't see what you're trying to get at with this post.
Just imagine:
Beerus at 5% 1000 ki power strike 10 physical strength. Goku 200 Ki Defense, 200 health, means 800 damage. He gets koed as he can't block much with his body.
Now Beerus at 100% still uses his 1000 ki strike, Gokus now with 50000 Ki defense pool can absorb the ki portion and gets hurt by the still same 10 physical power, gets only 10 damage. This makes the fight longer and more equal, till one gets tiered (or depleted)
Now take someone like Hulk 10000 physical strength and 10000 physical endurance. He won't feel both attacks if Beerus hits were that weak but would kill him instantly as beerus physical defense is only 10 for example and his ki-shield won't help against a pure physical attack.
Originally posted by Damborgson
But this isn't a video game brother. This isn't a sole increase of resources, these are physical stats.I would bet a kidney Toriyama isn't thinking in video game terms.