Goku vs Superman Death Battle-Discuss

Originally posted by Galan007
KibitoKai is definitely not all-knowing, lol... Not even close. For example: he didn't know a thing about Beerus, the friggin God of Destruction, who's been around form millionS of years destroying shit. He also had no clue there were powers in the universe(aside from Majin Boo) that vastly eclipsed his own--he knew of Freeza, and that's about it. It's clear he paid very little attention to the mortal plane, and was content spending his time building worlds and seeding them with life. After all, he did have to take-on the jobs of [b]4 other Kaioshin after Boo slaughtered them... That's one hell of a burden, so I don't mind him being exceptionally uninformed at times.

Conversely, Elder Kaioshin, while certainly not omniscient, is probably the closest thing to an all-knowing character we've seen in DB. He seems to have an answer for pretty much everything. [/B]

You're actually wrong about that. Supreme Kai DID know about Bills. He just didn't think he was that powerful, or even a threat. This is because Bills only goes around destroying single planets at a time, and Supreme Kai witnessed threats like Buu, that went around destroying entire galaxies for the hell of it. And he specifically said that he didn't pay attention to many of the lower worlds like Earth, because their weren't any significantly powerful beings on them. So he didn't know that their were super powered beings like Goku, until after Goku killed Frieza, and attracted Supreme Kai's attention.

But you're right, he is far from omniscient. Very far from it.

Elder Kai though IS probably the closest thing to omniscient that we've seen. Hell, he can LOOK at OTHER PLANETS, and see women changing in dressing rooms from galaxies away. Plus, he has always known about everything that has been going on, from the Dragon Balls existing on Namek, to Bills being a universe buster, to Buu existing, to the potara's being fusion devices, etc.

However, I always figured that he had a form of divination or something, because of the Witch that fused with him when he was younger. Which is how Whiss knows so much, making him effectively omniscient as well, although just from using his staff as a medium for high-tier divination.

Originally posted by Galan007
Statements are the primary source of canon information in DB. Remember, these are characters who are intimately familiar with controlling, and sensing, ki... Toriyama doesn't have them just walking around spouting nonsense/hyperbole all the time.

That said, statements made in DB should be taken as fact until proven otherwise. There are some exceptions to this, but not many.

Well said. Glad to see that, yet again, Yungz is the only one stuck on the short bus.

Originally posted by yungz22
lol do you actually believe what you type or are you that dumb

we actually saw superman doing all of those things.

show me bills destroying the universe and the attack he used to do it.

No, we saw Superman lifting an unmarked weight, and saw someone STATE that he was benching the Earth's weight.

We also didn't see him lift 200 quintillion tons. We saw him press against a piston, and saw a scientist STATE that it was 200 quintillion tons.

We also didn't see him fly FTL. We saw him flying around and around at high speed, and saw it STATED that he was accelerating past light speed.

These kind of feats happen all the time in DC comics. If those count as feats, then so does Bills being stated a universe buster.

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're actually wrong about that. Supreme Kai DID know about Bills. He just didn't think he was that powerful, or even a threat. This is because Bills only goes around destroying single planets at a time, and Supreme Kai witnessed threats like Buu, that went around destroying entire galaxies for the hell of it.

Also, Boo did NOT destroy galaxies. That is a horrendously mistranslated line from a non-canon scanlation. The canon/VIZ dialogue from Kaioshin is much different:

In a few years, Boo destroyed hundreds of planets. That's it.

Aside from that, I agree with your post. 👆

Originally posted by SSJGGogeta
You're actually wrong about that. Supreme Kai DID know about Bills. He just didn't think he was that powerful, or even a threat. This is because Bills only goes around destroying single planets at a time, and Supreme Kai witnessed threats like Buu, that went around destroying entire galaxies for the hell of it. And he specifically said that he didn't pay attention to many of the lower worlds like Earth, because their weren't any significantly powerful beings on them. So he didn't know that their were super powered beings like Goku, until after Goku killed Frieza, and attracted Supreme Kai's attention.

But you're right, he is far from omniscient. Very far from it.

Elder Kai though IS probably the closest thing to omniscient that we've seen. Hell, he can LOOK at OTHER PLANETS, and see women changing in dressing rooms from galaxies away. Plus, he has always known about everything that has been going on, from the Dragon Balls existing on Namek, to Bills being a universe buster, to Buu existing, to the potara's being fusion devices, etc.

However, I always figured that he had a form of divination or something, because of the Witch that fused with him when he was younger. Which is how Whiss knows so much, making him effectively omniscient as well, although just from using his staff as a medium for high-tier divination.

Well said. Glad to see that, yet again, Yungz is the only one stuck on the short bus.

No, we saw Superman lifting an unmarked weight, and saw someone STATE that he was benching the Earth's weight.

We also didn't see him lift 200 quintillion tons. We saw him press against a piston, and saw a scientist STATE that it was 200 quintillion tons.

We also didn't see him fly FTL. We saw him flying around and around at high speed, and saw it STATED that he was accelerating past light speed.

These kind of feats happen all the time in DC comics. If those count as feats, then so does Bills being stated a universe buster.

lol you are the weakest link.... goodbye

the fanboy is strong in this one (yoda voice)

Originally posted by carver9
That's not the only time you used statements though. When you (yes you) debate DBZ characters, your entire debating style is based on statements. Let's not point out the statements you used proving DB GT Goku power level vs DBZ characters power levels. Your entire argument is based entirely on statements while ignoring fts. If you want to debate nothing but fts concerning DBZ characters, then be consistent and if you are being consistent then you yourself need to admit that Frieza, even while weakened is greater than anything in DBGT based solely on fts.

You are picking and choosing when it comes to the Kai's by the way.

I use statements in unison with feats to prove my point. Had I just just used the statement alone you'd have a point. I have no issue with statements being used as long as they are backed up by actual feats. You just using statements without anything to back is up is similar to the Superman being the strongest in the omiverse thing. Nothing's really backs it up so we can't use it.

So to clear things up for you so you aren't confused:
Statements backed up with feats - good
Statements with no back up - bad

Originally posted by juggerman
I use statements in unison with feats to prove my point. Had I just just used the statement alone you'd have a point. I have no issue with statements being used as long as they are backed up by actual feats. You just using statements without anything to back is up is similar to the Superman being the strongest in the omiverse thing. Nothing's really backs it up so we can't use it.

So to clear things up for you so you aren't confused:
Statements backed up with feats - good
Statements with no back up - bad

So we are back at square one. There really isn't any confirmation that anyone starting at the Frieza saga on up is a planet buster. This is where fts come into place. I'm sure you don't believe in sharing fts so with that said, is Goku a planet buster. Vegeta blast that was used on Cell was described as having enough power to shed Earth. Was that a true statement? If yes, what proof is there? People discredit power level, say it really don't mean much (which kinda fits your argument), so how would we know if anyone with a higher power level could generate as much power as Frieza did? Please explain.

Like I've said before, Superman being mentioned as the most powerful being in the Universe makes that Universe weak as hell since right after this, Superman admits he can not destroy a planet. Hell, look at his defeats. I don't mind him being the most powerful in the Omniverse but you need to take EVERYTHING into consideration when accepting that statement.

Originally posted by carver9
So we are back at square one. There really isn't any confirmation that anyone starting at the Frieza saga on up is a planet buster. This is where fts come into place. I'm sure you don't believe in sharing fts so with that said, is Goku a planet buster. Vegeta blast that was used on Cell was described as having enough power to shed Earth. Was that a true statement? If yes, what proof is there? People discredit power level, say it really don't mean much (which kinda fits your argument), so how would we know if anyone with a higher power level could generate as much power as Frieza did? Please explain.

Like I've said before, Superman being mentioned as the most powerful being in the Universe makes that Universe weak as hell since right after this, Superman admits he can not destroy a planet. Hell, look at his defeats. I don't mind him being the most powerful in the Omniverse but you need to take EVERYTHING into consideration when accepting that statement.

We aren't back to square one. You are trying to lump in established feats with guessing feats. What I mean by this is Roshi was a moon buster. Piccolo was as well. Anyone stronger than them can moon bust. That's an established power level. So guys a hundred times stronger can do a hundred times more. Goku is a planet buster.

Now we have to also consider canon statements made by the creator as fact. Cell stating he could solar system bust could be hyperbole. But when it's in his canon bio, it's a fact. SSJ2 level can solar system bust.

After than, unless we have a canon bio or statement from the creator we have to rely on feats in unison with statements. Saying Beerus can universe bust can really be hyperbole. We just don't know unless we have feats to back it up.

Power output DB can be exchanged imo since it's what they do. What cannot be exchanged is techniques. Meaning just because Goku became much more powerful than Guldo, he still cannot time freeze. He can't regen like some guys either. I don't discredit power levels, I just haven't seen anything that shows Beerus' PL is universe busting

Originally posted by juggerman
We aren't back to square one. You are trying to lump in established feats with guessing feats. What I mean by this is Roshi was a moon buster. Piccolo was as well. Anyone stronger than them can moon bust. That's an established power level. So guys a hundred times stronger can do a hundred times more. Goku is a planet buster.

Now we have to also consider canon statements made by the creator as fact. Cell stating he could solar system bust could be hyperbole. But when it's in his canon bio, it's a fact. SSJ2 level can solar system bust.

After than, unless we have a canon bio or statement from the creator we have to rely on feats in unison with statements. Saying Beerus can universe bust can really be hyperbole. We just don't know unless we have feats to back it up.

Power output DB can be exchanged imo since it's what they do. What cannot be exchanged is techniques. Meaning just because Goku became much more powerful than Guldo, he still cannot time freeze. He can't regen like some guys either. I don't discredit power levels, I just haven't seen anything that shows Beerus' PL is universe busting

You're sharing fts bro. Just because one character can do something doesn't mean another character can. If you are basing your entire argument off of fts, then a 'statement' about another character shouldn't matter. Cell being capable of doing something doesn't mean Buu should be able to do it if we are basing our arguments off of fts.

Prove that Goku is a moon buster. He doesn't have the fts. Prove that he is a planet buster. He doesn't have the fts. The only thing we have for these characters are statements. There's no going one direction with this. You either accept statements or you don't.

Originally posted by carver9
You're sharing fts bro. Just because one character can do something doesn't mean another character can. If you are basing your entire argument off of fts, then a 'statement' about another character shouldn't matter. Cell being capable of doing something doesn't mean Buu should be able to do it if we are basing our arguments off of fts.

Prove that Goku is a moon buster. He doesn't have the fts. Prove that he is a planet buster. He doesn't have the fts. The only thing we have for these characters are statements. There's no going one direction with this. You either accept statements or you don't.

I already said I accept statements. I except them when they are backed by feats. Goku matched and attack that was several times more powerful than the moon buster. Gohan matched the established solar system buster. Those are actual canon feats that show us how powerful these people are.

You keep trying to pretend I said statements don't matter. They do but they need to be backed up by showings. Stop trying to strawman me

Statements in DB certainly do not always have to be backed up by feats for them to be regarded as canon.

For example: SSJ3 Goku never actually fought Fat or Pure Boo at full power--but we know that he could have easily beaten both of them had he been able to reach full power, because we were told he could.

Same coin, we never saw Popo fight Kami, but we know Kami was more powerful because Popo said so.

We also don't know for a fact that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets in a few years(during his last rampage.) We just assume he did because Kaioshin told us so.

There are many, many other examples, but surely you get my point..? In DB, most statements are right, unless proven wrong.

Originally posted by juggerman
I already said I accept statements. I except them when they are backed by feats. Goku matched and attack that was several times more powerful than the moon buster. Gohan matched the established solar system buster. Those are actual canon feats that show us how powerful these people are.

You keep trying to pretend I said statements don't matter. They do but they need to be backed up by showings. Stop trying to strawman me

What attack did Goku match that was several times more powerful than a moon buster?

They don't need to be backed by showings "in DBZ". DBZ isn't American comics. You and I both know how Akira handle things in his writing.

Originally posted by carver9
What attack did Goku match that was several times more powerful than a moon buster?

They don't need to be backed by showings "in DBZ". DBZ isn't American comics. You and I both know how Akira handle things in his writing.

The Galick Gun

Why do you keep bringing up American comics? We are talking about DB here

Originally posted by juggerman
The Galick Gun

Why do you keep bringing up American comics? We are talking about DB here

When has the Galick gun blew up a planet?

Originally posted by Galan007
Statements in DB certainly do not always have to be backed up by feats for them to be regarded as canon.

For example:

1. SSJ3 Goku never actually fought Fat or Pure Boo at full power--but we know that he could have easily beaten both of them had he been able to reach full power, because we were told he could.

2. Same coin, we never saw Popo fight Kami, but we know Kami was more powerful because Popo said so.

3. We also don't know for a fact that Boo destroyed hundreds of planets in a few years(during his last rampage.) We just assume he did because Kaioshin told us so.

There are many, many other examples, but surely you get my point..? In DB, most statements are right, unless proven wrong.

1. He did fight Fat Buu and Pure Buu(assuming you mean Kid Buu and not that grey skinny Buu)

2. That's a little different imo but I see your point. Telling us someone is stronger than someone else doesn't need to be proven as much as say telling us Krillin can solar system bust.

3. That was a prior event being told to us. Not really the same thing imo. Telling us Buu could galaxy bust with no proof is much more questionable than telling us he used to rampage.

Originally posted by carver9
When has the Galick gun blew up a planet?

It was over a hundred times more powerful than Roshi's moon buster. No matter how you try to slice it the feats back up the statements when I argue it. Just because you are comfortable accepting statements without evidence doesn't mean I have to be.

And if you look at the history of DB, the more powerful you get means you can do the damage weaker people can do. I don't have to prove Goku can do the things weaker people can do because it's been that way since the beginning. It's up to you to prove Beerus can do something nobody has ever done

Originally posted by juggerman
It was over a hundred times more powerful than Roshi's moon buster. No matter how you try to slice it the feats back up the statements when I argue it. Just because you are comfortable accepting statements without evidence doesn't mean I have to be.

And if you look at the history of DB, the more powerful you get means you can do the damage weaker people can do. I don't have to prove Goku can do the things weaker people can do because it's been that way since the beginning. It's up to you to prove Beerus can do something nobody has ever done

I'm asking you, how do you know it was planet busting? Hell, Piccolo was significantly stronger than Roshi was as well and only showed moon busting power. No one outside of Cell showed anything above planet busting. Please answer my question with FTS because you TELLING me the blast was 10 times more powerful doesn't hold here if we are not accepting statements. I want you to prove that the Galick gun is planet busting. Hell, please provide proof that Goku at any form can planet bust. More powerful means nothing since we've only seen moon busting in DBZ. Does increasing your power a million folds only put you at twice moon busting?

Now again, please prove that the Galick gun is moon busting, then prove that Goku can planet bust. You can use any form if you want. We are not debating more power here, we are debating FTS.

Originally posted by juggerman
1. He did fight Fat Buu and Pure Buu(assuming you mean Kid Buu and not that grey skinny Buu)

2. That's a little different imo but I see your point. Telling us someone is stronger than someone else doesn't need to be proven as much as say telling us Krillin can solar system bust.

3. That was a prior event being told to us. Not really the same thing imo. Telling us Buu could galaxy bust with no proof is much more questionable than telling us he used to rampage.

Erroneous statements like that are few and far between, though, and should be taken on a case by case basis.

Boo galaxy-busting is a non-canon line, from a non-canon scanlation--so that's irrelevant.

Originally posted by juggerman
It's up to you to prove Beerus can do something nobody has ever done

exactly its called burden of proof statements have to be proven. declarations have to be backed by more than someone saying something.

Originally posted by yungz22
exactly its called burden of proof statements have to be proven. declarations have to be backed by more than someone saying something.

Someone saying something? Multiple people said this.

Originally posted by carver9
Someone saying something? Multiple people said this.

multiple ppl said bills is a universe buster?

im beggining to think your love for goku is clouding your judgement

Originally posted by yungz22
multiple ppl said bills is a universe buster?

im beggining to think your love for goku is clouding your judgement

Supreme Kai said it. Old Kai said it. King Kai said it. Multiple peeps.