Originally posted by The_Tempest
No shit Vitiate is extremely strong no matter where he is.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Doesn't mean he's strong enough to take on the Emperor no matter where he is.
Vitiate defeated a strike team of Dark Council members and scores of Jedi (including legendary Revan) in confrontations. In addition to epic performance in combat situations, Vitiate have some of the best showings in the applications of Sith Sorcery and manipulating the external environment.
Originally posted by AncientPower
An Emperor, not the Galactic Emperor though.
Vitiate defeated the Dark Council on Dromund Kaas and under ambiguous circumstances. Revan gave Vitiate hell and that was on Dromund Kaas. Vitiate hesitated to take on Revan, Scourge, and the Exile.
I'm not necessarily saying the Emperor will stomp him, but I see no evidence to believe Vitiate can hold his own in a neutral setting for very long.
Originally posted by The_TempestThere is something wrong or irrelevant in every sentence you wrote here.
Vitiate defeated the Dark Council on Dromund Kaas and under ambiguous circumstances. Revan gave Vitiate hell and that was on Dromund Kaas. Vitiate hesitated to take on Revan, Scourge, and the Exile.
I'm not necessarily saying the Emperor will stomp him, but I see no evidence to believe Vitiate can hold his own in a neutral setting for very long.How long does the battle have to take for you to consider it very long?
I strongly believe a force fight between Novel Vitiate and ROTS Sidious is a good fight if not a close one so I think it would certainly ake that long for Sidious to bring him down.
1) Why does the DK amp matter against the DC?
2) Revan didn't give Vitiate hell. He would even get humiliated if his name wasn't on the cover.
3) Vitiate didn't hesitate to take on them. Scourge first assumed as much then he himself realized that thought didn't make sense.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate defeated the Dark Council on Dromund Kaas and under ambiguous circumstances. Revan gave Vitiate hell and that was on Dromund Kaas.
Now that the setting-based argument is addressed, I shall comment on the additional aspects of the referred confrontations.
Vitiate vs. Dark Council
I also notice ambiguity in details of this confrontation but it doesn't discredits Vitiate's victory in this event; ambiguity is that Vitiate's offensive technique have not been identified in this confrontation. However, this mysterious technique can be regarded as an application of Sith Sorcery. More importantly, Vitiate have this offensive option under his belt for any hypothetical confrontation.
Vitiate vs. Revan
I don't recall Revan giving hell to Vitiate in any confrontation. But I acknowledge the fact that Revan performed admirably in his final confrontation with Vitiate. This isn't surprising since Revan is officially acknowledged as an extraordinarily powerful and competent Force-user just like Yoda. IMO, Revan can hold his own against any foe.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
Vitiate hesitated to take on Revan, Scourge, and the Exile.
The referred strike team did give Vitiate a pause but the latter wasn't deciding to flee or felt that he could not win. In-fact, it is explicitly stated in the novel that Vitiate was more likely to defeat this strike team if they had fought.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not necessarily saying the Emperor will stomp him, but I see no evidence to believe Vitiate can hold his own in a neutral setting for very long.
Also, you don't think that Vitiate can kill or even injure Sidious?
Originally posted by Selenial
That's a ****ing horrendous argument if I ever saw one 👆
Not really an argument by itself. We can discuss what really went down in the part where Revan faced Vitiate and I can give you my arguments regarding that topic but I'm %100 confident that confrontation cannot be summed up as "Revan gave Vitiate hell." 👆
Originally posted by Sinious
I strongly believe a force fight between Novel Vitiate and ROTS Sidious is a good fight if not a close one so I think it would certainly ake that long for Sidious to bring him down.
Cool.
Originally posted by Sinious
1) Why does the DK amp matter against the DC?
I said "on Dromund Kaas under ambiguous circumstances," meaning we don't know if (a) Vitiate could bring that sort of power to bear at this point without a dark side nexus and (b) we don't know what role was played by preparation or rituals.
That's how it's relevant.
Originally posted by Sinious
2) Revan didn't give Vitiate hell. He would even get humiliated if his name wasn't on the cover.
Yes he did and, to echo Selenial, that's a pretty dumb reason.
Originally posted by Sinious
3) Vitiate didn't hesitate to take on them. Scourge first assumed as much then he himself realized that thought didn't make sense.
?
Originally posted by The_Tempest(a) His power targeted people who were also amped by the nexus so the amp he got is irrelevant. (b) agreed.
I said "on Dromund Kaas under ambiguous circumstances," meaning we don't know if (a) Vitiate could bring that sort of power to bear at this point without a dark side nexus and (b) we don't know what role was played by preparation or rituals.That's how it's relevant.
Yes he did and, to echo Selenial, that's a pretty dumb reason.Don't just say things man. How did he give Vitiate hell? Vitiate faced the consequences of his own mistakes as he underestimated his opponent. Revan got one-shot the moment Vitiate stopped underestimating him. 👆
?What is confusing you?
Originally posted by Sinious
(a) His power targeted people who were also amped by the nexus so the amp he got is irrelevant. (b) agreed.Don't just say things man. How did he give Vitiate hell? Vitiate faced the consequences of his own mistakes as he underestimated his opponent. Revan got one-shot the moment Vitiate stopped underestimating him. 👆
What is confusing you?
It's only irrelevant if I were claiming that Vitiate had some sort of unfair amp advantage over the Dark Council, which I'm not. I'm saying that we have no earthly idea if he could bring that kind of juice to a fight against anyone at this point in time without a nexus and/or prep.
"Don't just say things" from the guy who credits Revan's performance against Vitiate with the fact that he's on the cover of the book?? He put Vitiate on his ass at least twice. That's not a stomp.
I'm not confused, I just don't know where you're getting that from since you didn't bother to cite the passage. "Don't just say things, man."
👍
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's only irrelevant if I were claiming that Vitiate had some sort of unfair amp advantage over the Dark Council, which I'm not. I'm saying that we have no earthly idea if he could bring that kind of juice to a fight against anyone at this point in time without a nexus and/or prep."Don't just say things" from the guy who credits Revan's performance against Vitiate with the fact that he's on the cover of the book?? He put Vitiate on his ass at least twice. That's not a stomp.
I'm not confused, I just don't know where you're getting that from since you didn't bother to cite the passage. "Don't just say things, man."
👍
If he didn't have some sort of advantage with the nexus amp, then how is the nexus amp relevant? 😬
I didn't base my argument on that. We had a discussion about this before but we can go through it again. One-shotting someone without doing any harm to them beforehand is at least a semi-stomp and just because Vitiate didn't give his full and got surprised by Revan's increased power at the beginning, it doesn't mean he wasn't always capable of one-shotting him. Revan being able to pull off what he did there is not an indication of power, it only proves he was capable of defending against Vitiate's halfass attacks which was never questionable.
"The three of them stood side by side, two Jedi and a Sith Lord against the Emperor.
“I expected better from you, Lord Scourge,†the Emperor said.
Scourge wondered if he was stalling for time so his Guard could break through the sealed door. There wasn’t much chance of that, however; by the time they broke into the throne room the battle would already be decided, one way or the other.
“He has seen the depths of your evil,†Revan declared. “He stands with us now.â€
“Then he will die with you, as well.â€
“You can’t defeat all three of us,†Revan said. “United, we are stronger than even you.â€
“That remains to be seen,†the Emperor replied.
This the part you are referring to are you not? I don't see any hesitation here. Only Scourge entertains that idea and disregards it immediately.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
It's only irrelevant if I were claiming that Vitiate had some sort of unfair amp advantage over the Dark Council, which I'm not. I'm saying that we have no earthly idea if he could bring that kind of juice to a fight against anyone at this point in time without a nexus and/or prep.
He couldn't, hypothetically he'd bring a lesser amount of power to a fight but that wouldn't matter since he'd be bringing it against a group of opponents who are also lesser by an equal amount, so his assault would be equally as effective as it was in reality.
You have a point about prep though, speculative as the presence of prep is.
@Sinious
...because there's no indication that he could generate an attack of that potency without a nexus...
Yeah, we have had the argument before and the facts are as plain now as they were then. Revan lost when he tried to tank Vitiate's super charged attack barehanded. Before that, he put him on his ass twice and foiled a mindhaxx attempt. That's not a stomp. "semi-stomp"? Are you serious? 😬
Reread what you cited: Scourge dismissed the idea that Vitiate was waiting on help from the guards, because the fight would be over "one way or another" by the time external aid arrived.
He didn't dismiss Vitiate's hesitation, just that particular reason for it.
Originally posted by The_Tempest
@Sinious...because there's no indication that he could generate an attack of that potency without a nexus...
Yeah, we have had the argument before and the facts are as plain now as they were then. Revan lost when he tried to tank Vitiate's super charged attack barehanded. Before that, he put him on his ass twice and foiled a mindhaxx attempt. That's not a stomp. "semi-stomp"? Are you serious? 😬
Reread what you cited: Scourge dismissed the idea that Vitiate was waiting on help from the guards, because the fight would be over "one way or another" by the time external aid arrived.
He didn't dismiss Vitiate's hesitation, just that particular reason for it.
What potency? You mean he couldn't one-shot an amped Dark Council without getting amped himself? Sure. Its proven that he can one-shot a Dark Council with no amp involved though. Had Vitiate lifted up a huge rock and threw on the Dark Council and kill them that way, you would have the chance to make an argument regarding the nexus amp making it possible for him to kill them. Not in this case though.
Look at the Sidious vs Yoda fight. Because they are extremely close/equals, Yoda was able to defend against Sidious' lightning barehanded and keep going for a decent amount of time. Revan on the other hand was instantly overwhelmed. If the gap of power between them is as small as you make it sound, he wouldnt go down that fast against Vitiate's first serious offense. He was able resist the TP attack because he had prior experience, not because he was naturally that talented or powerful.
What's wrong with semi-stomp? 😮
What hesitation are you talking about though? As far as I know, no other source suggests he hesitated so you must be referring to the novel. So please share the text that proves Vitiate had hesitation.